PDA

View Full Version : Until the RCC Gets Rid of Priestly Celibacy This Will Never Stop



RWGR
09-18-2015, 09:41 AM
....at least that's what I've been told



A Brimley pastor is facing numerous sex crime charges involving his church and several victims.

Police in Wisconsin arrested Jonas Moses from Brimley last week.

He has since waived his extradition and is in the Chippewa County Jail.

The prosecutor says police arrested Moses after acting on several search warrants.

They were both at his home in Brimley and at the Anishinabe Baptist Church in Sault Ste. Marie.

The prosecutor says the investigation is ongoing.

Moses is facing eight charges of criminal sexual conduct -- two of those are first-degree.

http://www.9and10news.com/story/30054879/brimley-pastor-accused-of-sex-crimes-involving-church-and-several-victims



wait a minute ... http://vz.iminent.com/vz/d3e3fc84-cb29-4af6-8fb4-21bc0530095c/2/yellow-smiley-confused.gif

Barry Morris
09-18-2015, 06:11 PM
We could argue this forever.

All men sin, have you forgotten??

RWGR
09-19-2015, 10:42 AM
I have to admit, I did forget for the last ten years, as Protestants drooled over the Catholic abuse scandals.

I forgot, now that we see it's just as big an issue in Protestant churches (and bigger, according to Billy Graham's grandson: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/01/protestant-sex-abuse-boz-tchividijian_n_4019347.html), it is now an issue we don't discuss.

Barry Morris
09-19-2015, 11:41 AM
I have to admit, I did forget for the last ten years, as Protestants drooled over the Catholic abuse scandals.

I forgot, now that we see it's just as big an issue in Protestant churches (and bigger, according to Billy Graham's grandson: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/01/protestant-sex-abuse-boz-tchividijian_n_4019347.html), it is now an issue we don't discuss.

I'll discuss it all day long, if there's any point to it.

I'm sure you remember our main complaint. That some hierarchies hide the truth by moving abusers around. Some large Protestant organizations do this, I'm sure, but one non-protestant denomination does it much more, and even swears children to secrecy about it.

I'm glad to see something is being done about sexual abuse on both sides.

RWGR
09-19-2015, 11:58 AM
I'll discuss it all day long, if there's any point to it.

You did discuss it all day long, back when you wrongly assumed it was only a Catholic problem.

I'm sure you remember our main complaint. That some hierarchies hide the truth by moving abusers around.

The story I posted shows that.

Some large Protestant organizations do this, I'm sure, but one non-protestant denomination does it much more, and even swears children to secrecy about it.


Last month, I moved out of a residential Christian community attached to a Methodist church in London. I moved for several reasons. One was the way that the church had handled an allegation of sexual abuse. The victim in that case was interviewed as part of the Methodist church’s Past Cases Review into abuse allegations. She had no advance notice of Thursday’s announcement by the Methodist church, which has formally apologised for 1,885 cases of abuse over the past 60 years. Despite media references to “historical abuse”, some of the cases are very recent.

This should be a wake-up call for all Christians in Britain. It is time for Protestants who have complacently dismissed church abuse as a “Catholic problem” to face the reality that abuse is endemic across denominations. As a Christian, and as someone who writes and teaches about religion and sexuality, I have heard far more stories of sexual abuse than I can count – along with stories of cover-ups, sexist responses, victim-blaming and repeated failures to take allegations seriously.

In terms of abuse in British churches, the 1,885 cases announced by the Methodists are undoubtedly the tip of the iceberg.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/29/protestants-abuse-catholics-methodist-church



Tchividjian had become convinced that the Protestant world is teetering on the edge of a sex-abuse scandal similar to the one that had rocked the Catholic Church. He is careful to say that there’s not enough data to compare the prevalence of child sex abuse in Protestant and Catholic institutions, but he’s convinced the problem has reached a crisis point. He’s not alone in that belief. In 2012, Christian radio host Janet Mefferd declared, “This is an epidemic going on in churches. … When are evangelicals going to wake up and say we have a massive problem in our own churches?” For years, Protestants have assumed they were immune to the abuses perpetrated by celibate Catholic priests. But Tchividjian believes that Protestant churches, groups, and schools have been worse than Catholics in their response.

http://shoebat.com/2014/05/06/sexual-abuse-protestant-churches-catholic/


Evangelical church accused of ignoring sexual abuse, “pedophilia ring”

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/12/evangelical_church_accused_of_ignoring_sexual_abus e_pedophilia_ring_partner/



in 2011, a story came out on 20/20 that for many people within that broad Bob Jones community made them really think about how the school was responding to allegations of rape or sexual abuse. And it was a story actually that didn't take place at Bob Jones University but instead at a church up in New Hampshire. There, about 15 years before, a teenage girl had been raped and impregnated by a deacon in her church. And when she became pregnant and her mother took her to the pastor, rather than help the family go to report this to the police or take some sort of other action, this young woman, this teenage girl, was made to stand before her congregation while her pastor read a confession. And then she was sent out of state away from her family. So when this came out years later...

http://www.npr.org/2014/05/23/315129859/sex-abuse-allegations-getting-protestant-churches-to-come-clean

Barry Morris
09-19-2015, 03:56 PM
None of this is news, RW.

We know it happens in all walks of life.

But those who coverup these things will pay a greater penalty IMO.

I did a sound job in an RCC church that I found quite interesting. The Mass was obviously everything. There were no classrooms, no Sunday school teachers, no youth groups, nothing. IMO, that meant two things. One, there was little chance of any sexual abuse because there was simply very little contact between church leadrs and the people, particularly youn people. Two, the church could not survive with only the old in attendance. Sure enough, that building is now a bunch of apartments.

One thing I have not yet looked into is how many of these allegations in the Protestant area involve the laity? What is the percentage difference. Catholic priests are accused, but how many Catholic lay people. In most Protestant churches, I would venture to say there are MANY more lay people involved than clergy.

RWGR
09-19-2015, 05:38 PM
Because you didn't see any Sunday school teachers meant there aren't any?

It really shows how little you truly noticed. Before the priest gives his homily he talks to the children for a bit, then he dismisses them to the back of the church where they engage in Christian education and activities during the service.

As for empty churches, what do I make of the handful of Protestant ones over here that are now ghost buildings?

RWGR
09-19-2015, 05:44 PM
One thing I have not yet looked into is how many of these allegations in the Protestant area involve the laity? What is the percentage difference. Catholic priests are accused, but how many Catholic lay people. In most Protestant churches, I would venture to say there are MANY more lay people involved than clergy.

The first book on clergy sex abuse in this country, Betrayal of Trust, was published in 1988. The perception that Catholic priests are overrepresented among offenders is correct. They do offend at a higher rate. But because this country is predominantly Protestant, more children are abused by Protestant ministers than by Catholic priests. In 1990, the Freedom from Religion Foundation issued a study on pedophilia by clergy. At that time, two clergy per week were being arrested in North America for sex crimes against children. Fifty-eight percent of them were Protestant.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/valerie-tarico/the-protestant-clergy-sex_b_740853.html

RWGR
09-19-2015, 05:45 PM
But those who coverup these things will pay a greater penalty IMO.
.

So there are different levels of sin.

There you go, agreeing with the RCC again! :) :) :)

Barry Morris
09-19-2015, 06:24 PM
Because you didn't see any Sunday school teachers meant there aren't any?

It really shows how little you truly noticed. Before the priest gives his homily he talks to the children for a bit, then he dismisses them to the back of the church where they engage in Christian education and activities during the service.

As for empty churches, what do I make of the handful of Protestant ones over here that are now ghost buildings?

In this particular church, now closed, that never happened in the five or six masses I attended. Besides, there was no room for it.

As to closed buildings over there, probably the same reasons.

Barry Morris
09-19-2015, 06:26 PM
So there are different levels of sin.

There you go, agreeing with the RCC again! :) :) :)

Oh, I don't think so. There's only one level in hell - away from God.

Bluesky
09-19-2015, 06:42 PM
Actually, Barry, let me encourage you to think biblically once again.
12*I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town. (Luke 10:12)

So yes there are different severities of judgment,

And there are some sins that are worse than others.
Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come! 2*It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin (Luke 17:1-3)

WHich is worse - to tempt someone to sin, or to be the one who was successfully tempted to sin? Jesus has a greater warning for the one who does the tempting.

Barry Morris
09-20-2015, 08:03 AM
Actually, Barry, let me encourage you to think biblically once again.
12*I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town. (Luke 10:12)

So yes there are different severities of judgment,

And there are some sins that are worse than others.
Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come! 2*It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin (Luke 17:1-3)

WHich is worse - to tempt someone to sin, or to be the one who was successfully tempted to sin? Jesus has a greater warning for the one who does the tempting.

Are there several levels of hell then??

RWGR
09-20-2015, 09:31 AM
Oh, I don't think so. There's only one level in hell - away from God.

So now you have contradicted what you said earlier: But those who coverup these things will pay a greater penalty IMO

How does sin have penalties which are harsher than some others if all sin is equal?

RWGR
09-20-2015, 09:33 AM
Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come!

I don't know why, but whenever I see that passage I always think "one through whom they come" means the person who acts on the temptation he or she feels.

I know it doesn't say that, but the way it's worded gets me every time.

RWGR
09-20-2015, 09:34 AM
Are there several levels of hell then??

No, but there is a time of cleansing, where we need to become perfect before being with God for eternity, and your time there will depend on the severity (levels) of your sins.








So, this Purgatory thing ...

:)

Barry Morris
09-20-2015, 09:46 AM
So, this Purgatory thing ...

:)

...is totally unbiblical, and has been added to scripture. You can read the penalty for that at the end of the bible.

RWGR
09-20-2015, 09:52 AM
...is totally unbiblical, and has been added to scripture. You can read the penalty for that at the end of the bible.

You worry about Luther adding "alone" first :) :) :)

as for Purgatory ...

first, this is what the Catechism says:

All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (1030).

It says that because ...

Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26)

Corinthians 3:11-15

For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.



and ...

Fundamentalists may be fond of saying the Catholic Church "invented" the doctrine of purgatory to make money, but they have difficulty saying just when. Most professional anti-Catholics—the ones who make their living attacking "Romanism"—seem to place the blame on Pope Gregory the Great, who reigned from A.D. 590–604.

But that hardly accounts for the request of Monica, mother of Augustine, who asked her son, in the fourth century, to remember her soul in his Masses. This would make no sense if she thought her soul would not benefit from prayers, as would be the case if she were in hell or in the full glory of heaven.

Nor does ascribing the doctrine to Gregory explain the graffiti in the catacombs, where Christians during the persecutions of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. Indeed, some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both written during the second century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it. (See Catholic Answers’ Fathers Know Best tract The Existence of Purgatory for quotations from these and other early Christian sources.)

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/purgatory

"Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage"

Bluesky
09-20-2015, 10:22 AM
Are there several levels of hell then??

Well, if Jesus says it will go easier for some than for others, then what can we say additionally to that?
Obviously you cannot say ALL sins have the same value worth the same level of punishment.

Just like in real life.

RWGR
09-20-2015, 11:50 AM
Barry has gone on record basically saying the paper clip stealer is just as guilty as the mass murderer. Yet the Bible teaches no such thing.

Barry Morris
09-20-2015, 01:40 PM
Barry has gone on record basically saying the paper clip stealer is just as guilty as the mass murderer. Yet the Bible teaches no such thing.

Truth bending.

RWGR
09-20-2015, 06:01 PM
In this case I think we can both agree that, yes,you are guilty of that.

Barry Morris
09-20-2015, 06:38 PM
In this case I think we can both agree that, yes,you are guilty of that.

There is a rest of the story. Are you interested??

Barry Morris
09-20-2015, 06:42 PM
Well, if Jesus says it will go easier for some than for others, then what can we say additionally to that?
Obviously you cannot say ALL sins have the same value worth the same level of punishment.

Just like in real life.

My point has always been that, beside the holiness of God ANY and EVERY sin will bring judgement. That judgement is death. An eternity separated for the most holy God.

BUT. Christ sacrifice has made a way for the most heinous of sinners. Submitting to God assures that.

RWGR
09-20-2015, 07:28 PM
There is a rest of the story. Are you interested??

Certainly.

RWGR
09-20-2015, 07:30 PM
BUT. Christ sacrifice has made a way for the most heinous of sinners.

And again, Barry, you're talking of differing levels of sin, something you deny... yet you can't help but illustrating it with your examples.

"Most heinous of sinners" = those whose sins are the worst.

Something "worst" must have an opposite: something less worse.

Different levels of sin.

Barry Morris
09-20-2015, 09:54 PM
And again, Barry, you're talking of differing levels of sin, something you deny... yet you can't help but illustrating it with your examples.

"Most heinous of sinners" = those whose sins are the worst.

Something "worst" must have an opposite: something less worse.

Different levels of sin.

Fine.

Barry Morris
04-05-2016, 02:25 PM
http://www.saultstar.com/2016/04/05/harsh-words-for-former-sault-priest-and-church

"And to find out that multiple bishops hid his abuse by moving him to new parishes where he continued his abuse of many dozens of innocent boys without telling the congregations is a huge injustice."

All walks of life see this type of abuse. But the hiding of the facts disturb me most.

RWGR
04-05-2016, 03:59 PM
Log, own eye...all that

RWGR
04-06-2016, 08:26 AM
Grayd**** also noted studies indicating that abuse rates by priests “are no higher than among other clergy,” a bone-chilling reality check for Protestant self-righteousness on this matter. In fact, some critics insist that the more fluid polity of certain Protestant communions — Baptists being a case in point — make tracking clergy sexual abuse even more problematic.

https://baptistnews.com/2016/03/24/a-church-that-protects-sexual-predators-isnt-much-church-at-all/

Bluesky
04-06-2016, 10:53 AM
the more fluid polity of certain Protestant communions — Baptists being a case in point — make tracking clergy sexual abuse even more problematic.

This is true. A hierarchy can be an advantage in this case, if it works the right way. If it serves to expose and deal with the problem, then a priest or minister cannot find a place where he can be anonymous if he stays with the organization. That's if the accuser chooses not to go to the authorities and only reports the abuse to the church leadership. But of course they are obligated to go to the authorities.

But if the legal authorities are engaged, I don't see how being in a Protestant style ministry is any more of a problem. They will find you, unless you have changed your identity.

But I note that someone dug up an old argument that has been thrashed out repeatedly with nothing new to add, for the sake of what??

Barry Morris
04-06-2016, 12:49 PM
....But I note that someone dug up an old argument that has been thrashed out repeatedly with nothing new to add, for the sake of what??

The case is current. As in current events.

Tell me Blue, has anyone done a careful study to see the difference between churches with many lay people working with children, and those with few?? Certainly clergy have a problem, as do people in all walks of life. But I'd be interested in an honest appraisal of the problem.

One might also consider the education levels of clergy, since many Protestant churches disdain college level training.

Bluesky
04-06-2016, 03:40 PM
No idea. You'll have to dig on your own.

Barry Morris
04-06-2016, 04:51 PM
No idea. You'll have to dig on your own.

I shall indeed.

RWGR
04-06-2016, 07:35 PM
Looking forward to his unbiased findings ...




http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/HAHA-GIF.gif

RWGR
04-06-2016, 07:37 PM
But I note that someone dug up an old argument that has been thrashed out repeatedly with nothing new to add, for the sake of what??

....


... but one guy, who lives for negativity and to fight,...

RWGR
04-13-2016, 10:03 AM
Sexual abuse survivors and their families grabbed the attention of people walking by the KFC Yum! Center on Tuesday.

That's where a large Protestant pastors conference is being held.

The protesters claim churches hide sexual predators and want to raise awareness that it's a serious problem.

They're upset that one of the guest speakers, C.J. Mahaney, is accused of covering up sex abuse at his church.

One family drove all the way from Maryland to protest him being part of the conference.

Their daughter was sexually abused.

"Here's a picture of her at the age ... she was abused," Pam Palmer said. "She was abused by a teenage boy who was convicted. The church pastor under C.J. Mahaney said to us, 'don't call the police.'"

http://www.wdrb.com/story/31705423/sexual-abuse-survivors-families-protest-protestant-pastors-conference-in-downtown-louisville