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Bluesky
01-28-2016, 02:31 PM
https://www.facebook.com/thegospelcoalition/videos/10153143346122723/

RWGR
01-28-2016, 04:48 PM
Not sure I get what he's saying.

Go ahead and sin, sin well, you're saved regardless?

or

Don't beat yourself up for stumbling, no stumble is large enough for God to forgive?

Bluesky
01-28-2016, 05:17 PM
Is that a sincere question?
Two men having a theoretical discussion on the day before the first passover night.
Both have followed the instructions they were given. But one is nervous, apprehensive, almost doubting.
The answer to the question, which household loses his first born son that night is the point of what he is saying.

Neither. Because salvation rests in the efficacy of the blood of the lamb, not on the intensity of the faith of either of them.

So too with our salvation. It does not depend on the intensity (read passion) of your faith; it depends on the efficacy of the sacrifice of CHrist.

Anapeg
01-28-2016, 06:56 PM
Not sure I get what he's saying.

Go ahead and sin, sin well, you're saved regardless?

or

Don't beat yourself up for stumbling, no stumble is large enough for God to forgive?

Does not either end at the same point? Forgiveness. I got from this it matters not the path but the destination. Not entirely bad for an agnostic eh what?

RWGR
01-28-2016, 07:39 PM
Is that a sincere question?
Two men having a theoretical discussion on the day before the first passover night.
Both have followed the instructions they were given. But one is nervous, apprehensive, almost doubting.
The answer to the question, which household loses his first born son that night is the point of what he is saying.

Neither. Because salvation rests in the efficacy of the blood of the lamb, not on the intensity of the faith of either of them.

So too with our salvation. It does not depend on the intensity (read passion) of your faith; it depends on the efficacy of the sacrifice of CHrist.

Right, I get that. Christ died for all. But is it saying the person who says "yup" one night to Christ, yet still lives a sinful life, is no different in the eyes of God as the most holiest of saints that has ever lived? After all, both are inheritors of the efficacy of The Sacrifice.

Bluesky
01-28-2016, 08:05 PM
Not at all. Look at this passage from 1 Peter 1
One cannot be an heir of CHrist's grace without it changing you.


14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, 18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.

a couple of things that this passage says (among many).
1. this is being written to those who already have a relationship to God through Jesus. St Peter makes reference to their past life of ignorance.
2. They have been redeemed by the blood of Christ.
3. The evidence that they have been redeemed will be in their transformed life. i.e. a life of good works. And the Father will judge those good works.

So, while I believe we are forgiven and redeemed through no merit of my own, I WILL be judged as to the authenticity of my faith by my deeds, my life.

Does that answer your question?

Barry Morris
01-29-2016, 07:22 AM
We are fickle and weak.

Always will be.

God is neither.

Bluesky
01-29-2016, 07:48 AM
Do you want to connect what you said with the topic of this thread Barry?

RWGR
01-29-2016, 08:29 AM
Not at all. Look at this passage from 1 Peter 1
One cannot be an heir of CHrist's grace without it changing you.



a couple of things that this passage says (among many).
1. this is being written to those who already have a relationship to God through Jesus. St Peter makes reference to their past life of ignorance.
2. They have been redeemed by the blood of Christ.
3. The evidence that they have been redeemed will be in their transformed life. i.e. a life of good works. And the Father will judge those good works.

So, while I believe we are forgiven and redeemed through no merit of my own, I WILL be judged as to the authenticity of my faith by my deeds, my life.

Does that answer your question?

Yes, and that's exactly how I (and the RCC) see it.

Bluesky
01-29-2016, 09:14 AM
Then you and I are closer in belief than we think.

Barry Morris
01-29-2016, 02:19 PM
Do you want to connect what you said with the topic of this thread Barry?

Our salvation is not based on the intensity of our faith. It's based on the blood.

I find the varieties of experience by those we recognize to be God's children in the bible. A thief never does any good works, a murderer is called a man after God's own heart, two other murderers write large portions of Scripture, a man denies Christ three times, and others.

One can be born again. But one can never be unborn, physically or spiritually.

"Lord, help Thou my unbelief!"

RWGR
01-29-2016, 02:20 PM
Our salvation is not based on the intensity of our faith. It's based on the blood.

I find the varieties of experience by those we recognize to be God's children in the bible. A thief never does any good works, a murderer is called a man after God's own heart, two other murderers write large portions of Scripture, a man denies Christ three times, and others.

One can be born again. But one can never be unborn, physically or spiritually.

"Lord, help Thou my unbelief!"

here's where we part ways

Bluesky
01-29-2016, 07:02 PM
But one can never be unborn, physically or spiritually.

Yeah, that's kind of a weird statement.

Being unborn is an incoherent concept. But death is not. The question was never, can I be unborn once I am born again. The question is can I die spiritually even if I am born again.
And you are saying (as would I) that a genuinely born again person would "never see death" (i.e. spiritual death).

Jesus said - *“I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26*and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.

There are many evangelical Christians who believe as ROman Catholics do - that a person who has faith in Christ can lose the grace that has been given him, such that he will be condemned. Methodists, Wesleyans, Many Pentecostals hold the same view.

The way I understand it (as do the reformers of old), is that if deeds do not follow my profession, or if an outrageously sinful lifestyle is characteristic of me, it is a sure sign that I did not have a genuine faith in the first place. I am at best only a cultural Christian, not a genuine one.

RWGR
01-30-2016, 10:34 AM
But I think Barry is of the mindset once you say "yes" to Jesus, that's it, you're saved, no matter what.

Barry Morris
01-30-2016, 11:25 AM
Yeah, that's kind of a weird statement.

Being unborn is an incoherent concept. But death is not. The question was never, can I be unborn once I am born again. The question is can I die spiritually even if I am born again.
And you are saying (as would I) that a genuinely born again person would "never see death" (i.e. spiritual death).

If a person was actually born again, he becomes a legitimate child of God. The bible does speak of illegitimate children, and I think they are created children, but not born again. Also, as we believe, we are filled with the Holy Spirit at that moment.


Jesus said - *“I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26*and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.

There are many evangelical Christians who believe as ROman Catholics do - that a person who has faith in Christ can lose the grace that has been given him, such that he will be condemned. Methodists, Wesleyans, Many Pentecostals hold the same view.

Then they have the problem of considering the possibility that a born again, legitimate child of God, filled with the Holy Spirit, can end up in hell. As you say, unborn is a weird concept, impossible. I believe that once born, a relationship is established that cannot be broken. Like your children and mine, not even God can break or change that relationship.


The way I understand it (as do the reformers of old), is that if deeds do not follow my profession, or if an outrageously sinful lifestyle is characteristic of me, it is a sure sign that I did not have a genuine faith in the first place. I am at best only a cultural Christian, not a genuine one.

I agree with this completely.

RWGR
01-31-2016, 10:25 AM
Then they have the problem of considering the possibility that a born again, legitimate child of God, filled with the Holy Spirit, can end up in hell. As you say, unborn is a weird concept, impossible. I believe that once born, a relationship is established that cannot be broken. Like your children and mine, not even God can break or change that relationship.



That's scary, because it's false.

Sorry, guys, that's where we part ways. Protestantism makes it way too easy. It's like God is an equal partner in a contract. That's so dangerous.