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Barry Morris
02-12-2016, 09:21 AM
"I thought I was close to God because I knew all the answers, but I had fooled myself into thinking that was the same as relationship with Jesus." Barnabas Piper.

RWGR
02-12-2016, 09:35 AM
False dichotomy, insinuating one must either be very knowledgeable concerning religion and God, or close to Jesus; can't be both.

I bet St. Augustine and St. Aquinas would scratch their heads over this.

Bluesky
02-12-2016, 10:45 AM
It CAN be a false dichotomy, but in this case it is not. It would be if it were posed as an either / or. Barnabas Piper is not advocating for a mindless or thoughtless or uncritical faith instead of knowledge. He is arguing for a knowledge-based well informed faith that holds Jesus up as the One being worshipped and not the one's own knowledge. I have met many who are proud of their theological knowledge, and yet demonstrate very little grace. St Augustine would applaud Barnabas Piper.

RWGR
02-12-2016, 11:01 AM
You deciphered that from that 28-word post?

Or are you familiar with his teachings overall?

Barry Morris
02-12-2016, 11:53 AM
It CAN be a false dichotomy, but in this case it is not. It would be if it were posed as an either / or. Barnabas Piper is not advocating for a mindless or thoughtless or uncritical faith instead of knowledge. He is arguing for a knowledge-based well informed faith that holds Jesus up as the One being worshipped and not the one's own knowledge. I have met many who are proud of their theological knowledge, and yet demonstrate very little grace. St Augustine would applaud Barnabas Piper.

If it were not true, a child could never be saved.

Bluesky
02-12-2016, 12:28 PM
You deciphered that from that 28-word post?

Or are you familiar with his teachings overall?

I am.

Bluesky
02-12-2016, 12:30 PM
If it were not true, a child could never be saved.

I don't understand. If WHAT were not true?

Barry Morris
02-12-2016, 12:40 PM
I don't understand. If WHAT were not true?

That a child CAN be saved, who has very little knowledge, but trusts Jesus.

Bluesky
02-12-2016, 01:05 PM
What is your point? Are you saying that this is what you advocate among adult believers? That God somehow values ignorance? That we should purposely dumb down our faith?

Perhaps RWGR is right. You are implying either faith OR knowledge, rather than both faith AND knowledge.

RWGR
02-12-2016, 01:57 PM
I am.

Okay, that makes sense. Simply going by that post, and never having heard of the guy before, it was unclear for me.

A little more context was needed for those of us unfamiliar with him.

RWGR
02-12-2016, 02:13 PM
What is your point? Are you saying that this is what you advocate among adult believers? That God somehow values ignorance? That we should purposely dumb down our faith?

Perhaps RWGR is right. You are implying either faith OR knowledge, rather than both faith AND knowledge.

I think what is happening is Barry is indeed using that very short quote to try and prop up a belief he has exhibited here many times before: (paraphrasing) 'be as a child when it comes to faith'.

Well, yes, but to try and use that to prove God wants us to be uninformed automatons who merely shake our heads yes at everything that relates to Jesus is to use the quote for purpose in which it was not intended. In fact, it would be my opinion that God enjoys an educated Believer, because he or she has the mental wherewithal to decipher exactly what is, and isn't, of and from Jesus (with the help of the Holy Spirit, of course). I think God created the phrase "trust, but verify" :)

Now, that's not to say the educated Believer is worth more in God's eyes than the simple Believer. That, of course, is not true in any sense whatsoever. But I think Barry believes the less you know, the better Christian you'll be. That seems very awkward to me.

Some of the greatest saints were very well-educated men and women who came to God through the very mental faculties seemingly being impugned here. And so it should be. If you truly believe God is Who He says He is, and the Creator of everything, then you shouldn't be offended by Believers of a serious intellectual bent, because all inquiry will eventually lead to God, in some way, shape, or form.

And let's not even reach out to the great Christian minds of yesteryear. Just here, in our little dysfunctional corner of the Internet, Blue, a man of obvious intelligence and intellectual skills, is in fact one of the most 'real' Christians here. His theological knowledge is greater then any of ours, because his life and career demand as much. And so he became educated about (Christianity/God/Jesus, etc), more so than any of us, and yet here he is, still a Christian, and a devout one.

(not comparing you to Aquinas, Blue, sorry...but you get my drift) ;)

I don't understand the OP's distaste for deep education in this area. There is nothing to be paranoid about.

Does Jesus ask us to believe as a child believes? Yes, He does. But to think it begins and ends there is insufficient. Believing as a child believes is the first step; then, should you have the tools to do so, deep inquiry and education can eventually follow.

God is not afraid of us to ask "What?" or "Why?" in things. In fact, I believe He welcomes it, if we are able to keep our minds open along the way.

Barry Morris
02-12-2016, 02:51 PM
What is your point? Are you saying that this is what you advocate among adult believers? That God somehow values ignorance? That we should purposely dumb down our faith?

Perhaps RWGR is right. You are implying either faith OR knowledge, rather than both faith AND knowledge.

Am I implying "faith OR knowledge" ???

Read the quote again. Does a man who says "knew all the answers" sound ignorant to you??

Is a child WITHOUT all the answers able to trust God?? Of course.

Jesus din't grab a scholar, sit him on His lap and say "of such is the kingdom of God". He said that of a child.

Does God value ignorance?? Let me turn that around. Does God value education??

Or is it a humble heart He wants??

Bluesky
02-12-2016, 04:06 PM
You're starting to sound like Hans. Answer a question with a question.

Barry Morris
02-12-2016, 04:33 PM
You're starting to sound like Hans. Answer a question with a question.

Oh, is that against the rules???

Your non response is starting to sound like the winger.

Now, would you like me to rephrase or not?

RWGR
02-12-2016, 06:01 PM
Am I implying "faith OR knowledge" ???

Read the quote again. Does a man who says "knew all the answers" sound ignorant to you??

Is a child WITHOUT all the answers able to trust God?? Of course.

Jesus din't grab a scholar, sit him on His lap and say "of such is the kingdom of God". He said that of a child.

Does God value ignorance?? Let me turn that around. Does God value education??

Or is it a humble heart He wants??

So an educated person cannot have a humble heart.

Where on earth is this theology coming from??

Bluesky
02-12-2016, 06:37 PM
Oh, is that against the rules???

Your non response is starting to sound like the winger.

Now, would you like me to rephrase or not?

Why oh why do you have to be so antagonistic? Get the chip off your shoulder. Who said anything about rules?
I said you sound like Hans, in that you answer a question by posing questions.
Will you give me a clear answer so that we can lay this matter to rest?

Barry Morris
02-12-2016, 08:06 PM
I don't assume that I know the reasons you believe and say what you do. I expect the same in return.

I will rephrase.

God does not value ignorance. God does not value education.

He values a humble heart.

Barry Morris
02-14-2016, 12:20 AM
So an educated person cannot have a humble heart.

Where on earth is this theology coming from??

That's not theology, that's just a local observation in one case.

Bluesky
02-15-2016, 08:35 AM
Oh my goodness. Seriously? God does not value education??

Why would you say that?

Or do you man to say there are some kinds of education God does not value and others that he does?

Do you think when Jesus says, "Learn from me" that is an education?

Why do you regard humility as the opposite of education and not pride?

Barry Morris
02-15-2016, 09:10 AM
Oh my goodness. Seriously? God does not value education??

Why would you say that?

Or do you man to say there are some kinds of education God does not value and others that he does?

Do you think when Jesus says, "Learn from me" that is an education?

Why do you regard humility as the opposite of education and not pride?


I apologize for not explaining as clearly as I might.

Will knowledge save a man?? No. It MIGHT lead him to the cross, but it will never be valued enough by God to save his soul.

BTW, Seems to me that, because we conservative Christians don't quite know what to make of the work of the Holy Spirit, we want our pastor/teachers to have degrees to prove their worth. No degree, no job.

I can't recall that verse, "learn from me". Jesus said "Follow me", And He certainly wanted us to trust in Him. And He taught His disciples. But I have to think it wasn't just knowledge He was trying to impart.

Pride is indeed the opposite of humility. But I do believe that the educated man is more likely to be prideful. Not always true, of course. And the worst offenders are those who have all knowledge of the doctrine of their denomination, placing it above any other truth.

Bluesky
02-15-2016, 11:36 AM
Oh Barry. You really need to learn to shape your opinions with biblical values. I am afraid you are too much in love with the sound of your own voice to take the time to actually look in the word to see what's there. And it is so easy thse days to do a simple biblical search.

So let me do it for you this time.
Here are some biblical exhortations to get a sound education.
PS 119:73
Your hands have made and fashioned me;
give me understanding that I may learn your commandments.

Proverbs 1:5 & 7
5* Let the wise hear and increase in learning,
and the one who understands obtain

7* The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge;
fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Pro 8:5
O simple ones, learn prudence;
O fools, learn sense.

Daniel was very educated - DAn 1:4*youths without blemish, of good appearance and skillful in all wisdom, endowed with knowledge, understanding learning, and competent to stand in the king’s palace,

Dan 1:17*As for these four youths, God gave them learning and skill in all literature and wisdom...
ANd here is the verse you couldn't think of.
Matt 11:28
28*Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29*Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls

Bluesky
02-15-2016, 12:53 PM
Will knowledge save a man?? No. It MIGHT lead him to the cross, but it will never be valued enough by God to save his soul.

Barry, let me use an analogy. I am drowning. WIll knowledge ALONE save me. No. I must act on my knowledge and grab that flotation device. So my knowledge informed action saves me.
Now, again, let me challenge you to back up your assertions from the Bible and to think a bit more deeply before you make assertions.

If I do not KNOW why Jesus died, who He is, or even that He exists, how in the world am I going to learn about the cross?

So we know that knowledge MIGHT lead someone to faith in Christ, but what's bad abour your assertion is what you leave out. Without knowledge, NO ONE will ever come to faith.

Then you say

BTW, Seems to me that, because we conservative Christians don't quite know what to make of the work of the Holy Spirit, we want our pastor/teachers to have degrees to prove their worth. No degree, no job.

Once again, you are making an either/or case which does not hold.
You are implying that pastors and teachers who get a degree or any formal Bible training do so to compensate for the lack of spirituality in their lives. And you are also implying by this that if a man is spiritual, he does not need an education.

You're still doing it. You really believe that we should not learn God's word as best we know how. Tell me, how are we to love the Lord with all our mind if you think we should avoid learning?

You also say [QUOTE]But I do believe that the educated man is more likely to be prideful. Not always true, of course. And the worst offenders are those who have all knowledge of the doctrine of their denomination, placing it above any other truth.[QUOTE]

There are thousands of reasons to be prideful. And un-teachability is one of the primary signs of it. Beware of people who have all the answers and sound very certain about them.

RWGR
02-15-2016, 04:10 PM
BTW, Seems to me that, because we conservative Christians...



Barry, you support politicians that support infanticide, and believe an Iranian news agency is a legit source for news. With all due respect, you are not a "conservative" Christian.

Barry Morris
02-16-2016, 06:21 AM
Barry, you support politicians that support infanticide, and believe an Iranian news agency is a legit source for news. With all due respect, you are not a "conservative" Christian.

Respect?? Sir, you are a damn liar.

In your books, anyone who questions what you want to believe is automatically supporting the "bad" guys.

I really don't care about what you think.

Barry Morris
02-16-2016, 06:32 AM
OK, Blue, what I expect from you now is the precise knowledge one needs to be saved. Exactly what and how much knowledge do I need??

Your words:
"Assertions", "either/or", "implying", "should not learn", "does not need an education" and last but not least "unteachability"

Lots of assumptions there.

As I sit under the ministry of those with doctorates, who even SPEAK Hebrew and Greek, I get a chuckle out of your assumptions.

I am reminded of the quote of a renowned scientist, who, when asked about the most profound thing he had ever heard, replied, "Jesus loves me!"

You have a good day!!

Bluesky
02-16-2016, 08:30 AM
BM, in the previous post, I quoted a number of Bible verses. Those are the backups to the "assertions" you assert I made.

And do you think unteachability is a sign of humility or pride?

RWGR
02-16-2016, 09:28 AM
Respect?? Sir, you are a damn liar.

In your books, anyone who questions what you want to believe is automatically supporting the "bad" guys.

I really don't care about what you think.

Sorry if the truth hurts.

Bluesky
02-16-2016, 12:54 PM
OK, Blue, what I expect from you now is the precise knowledge one needs to be saved. Exactly what and how much knowledge do I need??


No. We have discussed this sufficiently in the past. You're just going to go in circles again.

And that was not the point of the discussion. I have demonstrated, with Scriptures, that knowledge is a good thing. You stayed silent.

So what does a scientist prove when he says that Jesus loves me? WHat is your point by saying that? It is a profound truth. But he is a scientist after all, and would be the last person on earth to say knowledge is not important, even in one's pursuit of God.

And what are you trying to say about sitting under doctorates who speak Hebrew and Greek? I don't know why this gives you a chuckle? (You seem to chuckle a lot.)
(BTW, did you know that the biblical languages are not spoken anymore? Koine Greek and Biblical Hebrew are much different than the Greek and Hebrew spoken today)

I take it that when you add an exclamation mark on "Have a good day!" you intend to leave the discussion, and you really wish me the opposite. ;)

I really do pray that God will one day open your eyes to your own behaviour on these boards.

Barry Morris
02-16-2016, 01:19 PM
Blue, I never once said that knowledge was not a good thing. I just didn't bother responding to verses I obviously agree with.

Too many assumptions.

I'm sorry I cannot explain myself any better.

Barry Morris
02-16-2016, 01:19 PM
Sorry if the truth hurts.

You wouldn't know what is is.

RWGR
02-16-2016, 01:49 PM
Okay, Bill Clinton :) :) :)

Barry Morris
02-16-2016, 01:55 PM
Okay, Bill Clinton :) :) :)

I thought you were.

Bluesky
02-16-2016, 09:15 PM
I just didn't bother responding to verses I obviously agree with.


Well then what are we arguing about???
Sheesh.
It takes very little to type the words, "I agree"

From the way you have been arguing, it was NOT obvious that you thought knowledge was a good thing.

Barry Morris
02-16-2016, 09:49 PM
Well then what are we arguing about???
Sheesh.
It takes very little to type the words, "I agree"

From the way you have been arguing, it was NOT obvious that you thought knowledge was a good thing.

All right, so let me put it this way.

One can be saved without knowledge, but not without trust.

Bluesky
02-17-2016, 07:21 AM
All right, so let me put it this way.

One can be saved without knowledge, but not without trust.

You seem to be incapable of nuance. There is no such thing as a functional brain without some knowledge.

But can God save someone in a vegetative state? Of course. But He did tell us what our responsibility is in order to be saved, right?

1. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
Question - Who is Jesus Christ?
Answer - Learning who Jesus is would be considered KNOWLEDGE.

Or, even if we take your home-cooked version of how to be saved - submit to God.

Question - in order to submit to God, I need to havhe some KNOWLEDGE of what He wants me to submit to.

Once again, KNOWLEDGE.
You cannot avoid it.

Or even your above state - if you cannot be saved without trust, yet without knowledge..

That's whacked thinking.
How do I KNOW to trust anything?

WHO am I supposed to trust? That's knowledge.

Barry Morris
02-17-2016, 11:01 AM
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

I suppose what is clearly seen is knowledge. That it had a source is knowledge.

From that, I deduce that the person who decides to seek out, with a submissive heart, that source is from that moment a child of God.

I also deduce from scripture that a child, unaware of even the above, can trust Jesus, in the same way it trusts it's mother, and becomes a child of God.

RWGR
02-17-2016, 11:12 AM
Two pages in, and not an iota of proof that God is relatively dismissive of knowledge and education. In fact, the exact opposite has been shown to be true.

Bluesky
02-17-2016, 11:29 AM
Yeah.
St Paul says (to the Corinthians who had a problem with pride)
4*I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus, *that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge

Obviously Barry is so concerned about the harmful pride that knowledge can bring that he is wary of any knowledge. Therein lies the problem. He conflates knowledge and pride.

The flip side of this question though is wilful ignorance and the anti-intellectual reputation that Christianity has gained in general. Fundamentalists have paid a big price for closing their eyes and insisting that blind belief is all that is needed and that enquiring minds are doubting minds. It's what I was told as a teenager when I started asking questions. And that's why it grinds my gears to hear people say or imply that knowledge isn't important to our faith. It's supremely important.

No Barry. I am not talking about PRIDE.
Yes, children can come to faith.
But they ought not to remain infants in the faith.

Barry Morris
02-17-2016, 11:30 AM
The demons KNOW, and tremble. They don't just believe, they KNOW.

What you KNOW will never save you. The church you belong to and agree with on every point will never save you.

And you especially cannot tell us exactly what will.

Barry Morris
02-17-2016, 11:33 AM
Yeah.
St Paul says (to the Corinthians who had a problem with pride)
4*I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus, *that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge

Obviously Barry is so concerned about the harmful pride that knowledge can bring that he is wary of any knowledge. Therein lies the problem. He conflates knowledge and pride.

The flip side of this question though is wilful ignorance and the anti-intellectual reputation that Christianity has gained in general. Fundamentalists have paid a big price for closing their eyes and insisting that blind belief is all that is needed and that enquiring minds are doubting minds. It's what I was told as a teenager when I started asking questions. And that's why it grinds my gears to hear people say or imply that knowledge isn't important to our faith. It's supremely important.

No Barry. I am not talking about PRIDE.
Yes, children can come to faith.
But they ought not to remain infants in the faith.

Your analysis of my beliefs is off again. The concern about pride is a side issue. The simplicity of the faith is my concern, the true basis of salvation.

RWGR
02-17-2016, 11:38 AM
The flip side of this question though is wilful ignorance and the anti-intellectual reputation that Christianity has gained in general. Fundamentalists have paid a big price for closing their eyes and insisting that blind belief is all that is needed and that enquiring minds are doubting minds. It's what I was told as a teenager when I started asking questions. And that's why it grinds my gears to hear people say or imply that knowledge isn't important to our faith. It's supremely important.



Nailed it.

RWGR
02-17-2016, 11:39 AM
Your analysis of my beliefs is off again. The concern about pride is a side issue. The simplicity of the faith is my concern, the true basis of salvation.

...excuse Barry, he's got some goalposts to move ...

RWGR
02-17-2016, 11:40 AM
The demons KNOW, and tremble. They don't just believe, they KNOW.

What you KNOW will never save you. The church you belong to and agree with on every point will never save you.

And you especially cannot tell us exactly what will.

I will gladly, and with great zeal, put my knowledge of all things God-related up against yours, ANY DAY :)

Bluesky
02-17-2016, 11:46 AM
Barry, I am just going to respond with some Bible verses (which you seldom, if ever do). You can look up the contexts if you want to.

5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness
7 But as you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in all earnestness, and in our love for you
And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment,
9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God
9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator
4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth
God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Barry Morris
02-17-2016, 03:46 PM
I will gladly, and with great zeal, put my knowledge of all things God-related up against yours, ANY DAY :)

No problem.

But I'm sure lots of atheists can match your knowledge, even of bible matters.

Salvation is another matter.

Barry Morris
02-17-2016, 03:48 PM
Barry, I am just going to respond with some Bible verses (which you seldom, if ever do). You can look up the contexts if you want to.

5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness
7 But as you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in all earnestness, and in our love for you
And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment,
9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God
9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator
4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth
God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Now lets see which of those verses is aimed at the believer.

I have asked you over and over exactly what I must do to be saved.

I believe I must know as much as a child who trusts. Do you??

RWGR
02-17-2016, 04:31 PM
No problem.

But I'm sure lots of atheists can match your knowledge, even of bible matters.

Salvation is another matter.

Nice deflection.

I knew you were too scared to pout your money where your mouth is

RWGR
02-17-2016, 04:41 PM
I believe I must know as much as a child who trusts. Do you??

Good lord, how can you not see the difference??

God does not expect you, A GROWN MAN, to have the knowledge-base of a child when it comes to discerning His will, etc! At your age if that's all you have than you willingly avoided gaining knowledge he wants us to have AS WE GROW not only spiritually but intellectually.

Again, your theology absolutely distorts a key biblical passage. Nowhere does it say to have the knowledge of a child, it says trust as a child. THAT IS THE BEGINNING.

And you want it to start and end there. Why? Because it's so simple, and doesn't require any work. That sums up your personal theology. And that is incredibly dangerous. You sell people a Christianity that simply doesn't exist.

Shame on you.

Barry Morris
02-17-2016, 04:55 PM
Good lord, how can you not see the difference??

God does not expect you, A GROWN MAN, to have the knowledge-base of a child when it comes to discerning His will, etc! At your age if that's all you have than you willingly avoided gaining knowledge he wants us to have AS WE GROW not only spiritually but intellectually.

Again, your theology absolutely distorts a key biblical passage. Nowhere does it say to have the knowledge of a child, it says trust as a child. THAT IS THE BEGINNING.

And you want it to start and end there. Why? Because it's so simple, and doesn't require any work. That sums up your personal theology. And that is incredibly dangerous. You sell people a Christianity that simply doesn't exist.

Shame on you.

"And you want it to start and end there" ??? I do?? News to me. Guess you can't read.

BTW, nowhere does it say to have the knowledge of a theologian to be saved.

Barry Morris
02-17-2016, 04:56 PM
Amusing to see you try to take on a teacher's role.

RWGR
02-17-2016, 05:56 PM
Amusing to see you try and take on a child's role.

RWGR
02-17-2016, 05:57 PM
"And you want it to start and end there" ??? I do?? News to me. Guess you can't read.

BTW, nowhere does it say to have the knowledge of a theologian to be saved.

You're right. And nowhere does it say wisdom and knowledge will get in the way of being saved.

Now, if only that massive ego of yours would let you admit you're wrong here, so we can move on

Bluesky
02-17-2016, 06:42 PM
I am done here.

Barry Morris
02-17-2016, 11:32 PM
You're right. And nowhere does it say wisdom and knowledge will get in the way of being saved.

Now, if only that massive ego of yours would let you admit you're wrong here, so we can move on

Sure.

Barry Morris
02-18-2016, 12:25 AM
"Trusting Jesus is far more than giving intellectual assent to His existence--that's something even the Devil acknowledges. A true believer enters into a relationship, not a religion, with the One who loves his soul enough to save him from eternal punishment." Jimmie Wash.

dancingqueen
02-18-2016, 07:16 AM
Barry, is it then your assertion that the education system is not created for the interest of God?
As a believer in God, wouldn't you expect he would want us to use the brain he gave us?
Lets be honest, if we where created by a deity, the brain is a most amazing and remarkable "device" It would be a shame to waste it.

RWGR
02-18-2016, 08:22 AM
Excellent point, DQ.

The brain is such a magnificent, complex thing that we, in the 21st century, are only scratching the surface as to how it works, and what it can do.

If you believe in God, then you believe He created that amazing thing called the brain.

but...I guess He kind of second-guessed Himself after creating it. According to BM Theology, He isn't real keen on us using it too much.



BM Theology ...got to admit, that FITS! :) :) :)

Barry Morris
02-18-2016, 09:32 AM
Barry, is it then your assertion that the education system is not created for the interest of God? You might be interested in looking up which group of people began the education system that we know today. Try "Sunday School"

As a believer in God, wouldn't you expect he would want us to use the brain he gave us? Of course. And you will find that many learned men, scientists and discoverers, were highly educated, and believers in God, giving Him the glory

Lets be honest, if we where created by a deity, the brain is a most amazing and remarkable "device" It would be a shame to waste it. Indeed it would be a shame to waste it, and I believe that we should all seek to learn all we can about our world and God.

It is too bad that some only seek to waste the intellect they were given to attack others, and ignore the point.

RWGR
02-18-2016, 09:36 AM
You might be interested in looking up which group of people began the education system that we know today. Try "Sunday School"

LOL!!!

Our education system today was brought to us by the RCC:

The original medieval universities arose from the Roman Catholic Church https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_European_research_universities

It was, after all, in the High Middle Ages that the university came into existence. The university, which developed and matured at the height of Catholic Europe, http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/education/catholic-contributions/the-catholic-church-and-the-creation-of-the-university.html

Barry Morris
02-18-2016, 09:38 AM
Open to the general public, I'm sure. :) :) :)

RWGR
02-18-2016, 09:40 AM
Open to the general public, I'm sure. :) :) :)

Absolutely.

LOL, amazing how you think you can just throw sh** against the wall, and hope it sticks.

You can't even tell the difference between your lies and reality anymore. That's probably a bridge you didn't want to cross.

Bluesky
02-18-2016, 09:53 AM
Indeed it would be a shame to waste it, and I believe that we should all seek to learn all we can about our world and God.



If you believe this, can you please explain why you were arguing with me?

RWGR
02-18-2016, 09:56 AM
Wow, I didn't even read that.

He totally contradicted what he's been arguing about.

Amazing what an unharnessed ego can do.

Barry Morris
02-18-2016, 10:34 AM
If you believe this, can you please explain why you were arguing with me?

Because education and knowledge is not the foundation of our salvation. Trust is.

RWGR
02-18-2016, 10:35 AM
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg

dancingqueen
02-18-2016, 10:41 AM
You might be interested in looking up which group of people began the education system that we know today. Try "Sunday School"
Of course. And you will find that many learned men, scientists and discoverers, were highly educated, and believers in God, giving Him the glory
Indeed it would be a shame to waste it, and I believe that we should all seek to learn all we can about our world and God.

It is too bad that some only seek to waste the intellect they were given to attack others, and ignore the point.

Right.... So I fail to see the intent of your original position.
I am not making any attacks, I am trying to understand your position through asking questions.

I mean I get that you don't have to be super intelligent to have faith in God, it really goes without saying that God would love their intelligent creations as much as the unintelligent ones. Intelligence, after all is very loosely defined and even some of the greatest minds agree that intelligence in and of itself is not an indicator of anything significant.

Barry Morris
02-18-2016, 10:51 AM
Right.... So I fail to see the intent of your original position.
I am not making any attacks, I am trying to understand your position through asking questions.

I mean I get that you don't have to be super intelligent to have faith in God, it really goes without saying that God would love their intelligent creations as much as the unintelligent ones. Intelligence, after all is very loosely defined and even some of the greatest minds agree that intelligence in and of itself is not an indicator of anything significant.

I see intelligence and education as two different things. One can certainly be intelligent, but not have access to education. Education is only useful if one can use their intelligence to apply it.

My point remains that the education level and knowledge base of anyone is not the foundation of their salvation in God. If they trust Him, they are His children. Naturally, as Bluesky has pointed out, with passages aimed at believers, we should continue to grow in God, through study and learning. I believe that a person can be completely right with God, and yet never get much more learning than he had when he first came to God.

RWGR
02-18-2016, 10:55 AM
My point remains that the education level and knowledge base of anyone is not the foundation of their salvation in God. .

And not one person, not one, argued as much.

He argues with himself now.

Barry Morris
02-18-2016, 12:50 PM
Anybody here speak English??

RWGR
02-18-2016, 12:53 PM
Flailing now

Sad

Barry Morris
02-18-2016, 12:55 PM
It is sad. You should quit.

RWGR
02-18-2016, 12:56 PM
I win :) :) :)

Barry Morris
02-18-2016, 12:58 PM
Of course, congratulations!!

RWGR
02-18-2016, 12:59 PM
Thanks, BM!!!! :) :) :)

Bluesky
02-18-2016, 03:18 PM
BArry - to quote the Philippian jailor, "What must I do to be saved?"
Paul - "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."
Question - How did the Philippian jailor know who Jesus was? Somewhere in that exchange following the supernatural earthquake he acquired some KNOWLEDGE.

You said
I believe that a person can be completely right with God, and yet never get much more learning than he had when he first came to God.

Hmm, if he is incapable of learning more then I would agree. But that is not the norm. And that is not what we should teach. "can be" and ought to be" are two different things.
The author of Hebrews says
"12*For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13*for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14*But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil."


Do you agree or disagree that teaching requires transmission of KNOWLEDGE? And that God considers this a good thing, a desirable thing. In fact remaining in your spiritual infancy is NOT a good thing.

Barry Morris
02-18-2016, 04:51 PM
Thanks for the opportunity to explain.


BArry - to quote the Philippian jailor, "What must I do to be saved?"

I believe that the jailer was saved as soon as that desire was formed in his heart


Paul - "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."

Quite right, the next piece of knowledge he needed.


Question - How did the Philippian jailor know who Jesus was? Somewhere in that exchange following the supernatural earthquake he acquired some KNOWLEDGE.

Quite right, and he continued AS A CHILD OF GOD, learning more from that point


Hmm, if he is incapable of learning more then I would agree. But that is not the norm. And that is not what we should teach. "can be" and ought to be" are two different things.
The author of Hebrews says
"12*For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13*for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14*But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil."


I agree completely that the child of God should learn all he can as he follows God.


Do you agree or disagree that teaching requires transmission of KNOWLEDGE? And that God considers this a good thing, a desirable thing. In fact remaining in your spiritual infancy is NOT a good thing.

Quite right, I agree completely. I will point out that one can be saved, trusting in God and Christ, with very, very little knowledge, and still be exactly where God would have him in his spiritual walk.

RWGR
02-18-2016, 05:10 PM
I believe that the jailer was saved as soon as that desire was formed in his heart


So what he did afterwards had no bearing on if he was saved.

What a dangerous idea.

Barry Morris
02-18-2016, 05:19 PM
So what he did afterwards had no bearing on if he was saved.

What a dangerous idea.

If. God knows. You and I don't.

Found something interesting.

"A person who only thinks about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not a Christian" Pope Francis

Bluesky
02-18-2016, 05:44 PM
I will point out that one can be saved, trusting in God and Christ, with very, very little knowledge, and still be exactly where God would have him in his spiritual walk.

Quite right. So on most points we are agreed and most of this thread is in the pooper.
However, your lack of nuance (or desire to be the last person standing) bothers me. You cannot be a child of God, and remain stagnant in the faith. You must produce works or 'the fruit of the spirit'. There must be a transformed life. And for that to happen, there must be growth, an increase of knowledge. Unless there is a mental handicap and a person is learning challenged. Agreed?

Bluesky
02-18-2016, 05:45 PM
BM said
God knows. You and I don't.

But earlier you said
I believe that the jailer was saved as soon as that desire was formed in his heart

You seem to think you know.

Barry Morris
02-18-2016, 06:58 PM
...You seem to think you know.

I do know that I trust God to know the heart and intent of the man involved.

Just like the thief on the cross. Jesus knew his heart.

Barry Morris
02-18-2016, 07:05 PM
Quite right. So on most points we are agreed and most of this thread is in the pooper.
However, your lack of nuance (or desire to be the last person standing) bothers me. You cannot be a child of God, and remain stagnant in the faith. You must produce works or 'the fruit of the spirit'. There must be a transformed life. And for that to happen, there must be growth, an increase of knowledge. Unless there is a mental handicap and a person is learning challenged. Agreed?

You said, "You cannot be a child of God, and remain stagnant in the faith." I would say, "You should not be a child of God, and remain stagnant in the faith". Other wise you are adding works to salvation. I'm pretty sure that is not your intent.

To be a child of God, one must be born again. Once part of God's family, filled with the Spirit, one is saved. The growing, hopefully, begins at that point.

Bluesky
02-18-2016, 10:20 PM
I am going to ignore the faith - works relationship in this discussion. We'll talk about that some other day.

Barry Morris
02-23-2016, 08:28 PM
Comments made elsewhere:

"I believe that there are illegitimate children of God. he did create us all. But once born again, how can we be unborn?? My son is my son. Not even God can change that relationship. And that relationship is the basis of our salvation. We are his legitimate, born again into His family, children. Filled with His spirit, too. Now, IF we could lose our salvation, we would be unborn and unfilled, and I don't believe that is possible or see it in scripture."

"Two other bible truths. All have sinned, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. Those ARE true, and I have yet to meet a non-believer in eternal salvation tell me exactly where he draws the line."