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Barry Morris
02-20-2016, 09:27 AM
Just a thought.

The welfare state is the replacement for tribes/clans/families.

The Chronic Liar
02-20-2016, 10:09 AM
Or the cause of the depletion of tribes/clans/families

RWGR
02-20-2016, 11:45 AM
Damn, ten words shut this thread down.

Awesome response, TCL

Barry Morris
02-20-2016, 12:20 PM
Damn, ten words shut this thread down.

Awesome response, TCL

I know you like to shut down discussion, but maybe we'll continue, if that's OK with you???

Barry Morris
02-20-2016, 12:21 PM
Or the cause of the depletion of tribes/clans/families

How about capitalism as the cause?? The extended families have to break up to move away for work??

Rather ironic then, that the cure for THAT is socialism.

Anapeg
02-20-2016, 12:40 PM
Just a thought.

The welfare state is the replacement for tribes/clans/families.

The welfare state does seem to step in and do everything the tribe, clan, family did in the past. Difference being the tribe, clan, and family told you to get your sorry ass a job where the welfare state teaches that it is quite alright to lay about your whole life so they have a job to go to tomorrow.

The Chronic Liar
02-20-2016, 12:44 PM
How about capitalism as the cause?? The extended families have to break up to move away for work??

Rather ironic then, that the cure for THAT is socialism.

We've had capitalism for a while now and it worked for a long time. If I could pin the rapid decline on something, I would pin it to technology more than capitalism itself. Socialism is definitely not a cure. It may solve one problem but it creates others.

Anapeg
02-20-2016, 12:51 PM
We've had capitalism for a while now and it worked for a long time. If I could pin the rapid decline on something, I would pin it to technology more than capitalism itself. Socialism is definitely not a cure. It may solve one problem but it creates others.

If it were technology for anything other than the advancement of capitalism I would agree. The technology is meant solely to replace humans, for reasons of speed, accuracy or straight up money savings. When you eliminate jobs, you are creating the need for socialism to step into the breach and take up those displaced and lacking funds to do for themselves.

RWGR
02-20-2016, 12:57 PM
I know you like to shut down discussion, but maybe we'll continue, if that's OK with you???

It's not.

Cease, and desist.

The Chronic Liar
02-20-2016, 02:40 PM
If it were technology for anything other than the advancement of capitalism I would agree. The technology is meant solely to replace humans, for reasons of speed, accuracy or straight up money savings. When you eliminate jobs, you are creating the need for socialism to step into the breach and take up those displaced and lacking funds to do for themselves.

Technology also creates a lot of good jobs. Technology has been eliminating jobs ever since the first wheel was made. In regards to family degredation, I don't think technology replacing jobs has as big an effect as you think. When parents spend more time on the phone than with kids, we begin a cycle. I think it's entirely possible to maintain family structure with 2 working parents because so many people do it. This is a generation of excuses plain and simple.

Barry Morris
02-20-2016, 02:59 PM
Technology also creates a lot of good jobs. Technology has been eliminating jobs ever since the first wheel was made. In regards to family degredation, I don't think technology replacing jobs has as big an effect as you think. When parents spend more time on the phone than with kids, we begin a cycle. I think it's entirely possible to maintain family structure with 2 working parents because so many people do it. This is a generation of excuses plain and simple.

I don't think technology necessarily eliminates work, it just shifts it.

A simple analogy, subject to disagreement. A man can carry a hundred pounds on his back. Ten can carry a thousand. Then along comes the wheel, and now five men can more easily do the work of the ten. But somebody has to build the wheel, and design and build the carts, and cut down the trees, and make the lumber, not to mention somebody else making the nails, and somebody has to make and supply the grease for the axle. Next thing ya know, everybody want a cart!!! NOW how many have jobs???

But the family is affected in many ways. Technology allows us to live further apart, and the clan is less likely to exist.

The Chronic Liar
02-20-2016, 03:03 PM
I don't think technology necessarily eliminates work, it just shifts it.

A simple analogy, subject to disagreement. A man can carry a hundred pounds on his back. Ten can carry a thousand. Then along comes the wheel, and now five men can more easily do the work of the ten. But somebody has to build the wheel, and design and build the carts, and cut down the trees, and make the lumber, not to mention somebody else making the nails, and somebody has to make and supply the grease for the axle. Next thing ya know, everybody want a cart!!! NOW how many have jobs???

But the family is affected in many ways. Technology allows us to live further apart, and the clan is less likely to exist.

I think you just described how capitalism is a good thing.

The Chronic Liar
02-20-2016, 03:07 PM
Nowhere in there do we hear about Johnny who doesn't like making wheels and just wants to play in a rock band. Now Johnny who doesn't want to contribute to the tree cutting, greasing, or cartmaking lives a sad life and we should all feel sorry for him and pay for his guitars so that he can acheive his dream.

Barry Morris
02-20-2016, 03:17 PM
Nowhere in there do we hear about Johnny who doesn't like making wheels and just wants to play in a rock band. Now Johnny who doesn't want to contribute to the tree cutting, greasing, or cartmaking lives a sad life and we should all feel sorry for him and pay for his guitars so that he can achieve his dream.

I suppose one might think that with the decline of family values and the breakup of the extended family, the slacker you describe has a lot more leeway to just be a lazy bum. I think where they is no welfare state, Johnny can eat and live indoors with family, but that's about all he gets.

Barry Morris
02-20-2016, 03:18 PM
I think you just described how capitalism is a good thing.

But also how it has negatives.

The Chronic Liar
02-20-2016, 03:40 PM
I suppose one might think that with the decline of family values and the breakup of the extended family, the slacker you describe has a lot more leeway to just be a lazy bum. I think where they is no welfare state, Johnny can eat and live indoors with family, but that's about all he gets.

Nah. Johnny's family is strong and part of that is showing Johnny some tough love.

Bluesky
02-20-2016, 04:39 PM
Nowhere in there do we hear about Johnny who doesn't like making wheels and just wants to play in a rock band. Now Johnny who doesn't want to contribute to the tree cutting, greasing, or cartmaking lives a sad life and we should all feel sorry for him and pay for his guitars so that he can acheive his dream.

So in a family/clan situation, Johnny didn't eat unless he contributed. You either hunt or go hungry. It's that simple. In socialism, Johnny eats because the governemnt puts a legislative gun to OUR heads to force US to go hunting for him, our government leaders as well as ourselves.

The Chronic Liar
02-20-2016, 04:53 PM
So in a family/clan situation, Johnny didn't eat unless he contributed. You either hunt or go hungry. It's that simple. In socialism, Johnny eats because the governemnt puts a legislative gun to OUR heads to force US to go hunting for him, our government leaders as well as ourselves.

Johnny is really starting to bug me.

Barry Morris
02-20-2016, 06:47 PM
Nah. Johnny's family is strong and part of that is showing Johnny some tough love.

Yup, that's what I meant.!!

Anapeg
02-22-2016, 03:07 PM
I don't think technology necessarily eliminates work, it just shifts it.

A simple analogy, subject to disagreement. A man can carry a hundred pounds on his back. Ten can carry a thousand. Then along comes the wheel, and now five men can more easily do the work of the ten. But somebody has to build the wheel, and design and build the carts, and cut down the trees, and make the lumber, not to mention somebody else making the nails, and somebody has to make and supply the grease for the axle. Next thing ya know, everybody want a cart!!! NOW how many have jobs???

But the family is affected in many ways. Technology allows us to live further apart, and the clan is less likely to exist.

If this is the truth, explain the millions out of work.

Barry Morris
02-22-2016, 05:44 PM
If this is the truth, explain the millions out of work.

The other side of the coin is obvious. Trades people are hard to find. Truck drivers have lots of work. Bricklayers make 50 bucks an hour. Seamstresses and tailors are disappearing.

I wonder what would happen if the government (socialism again) offered support and free schooling to everyone who wanted to change their profession to something that was needed??

It's like we only went half way to socialism.

Anapeg
02-22-2016, 07:45 PM
The other side of the coin is obvious. Tradespeople are hard to find. Truck drivers have lots of work. Bricklayers make 50 bucks an hour. Seamstresses and tailors are disappearing.

I wonder what would happen if the government (socialism again) offered support and free schooling to everyone who wanted to change their profession to something that was needed??

It's like we only went half way to socialism.

This was done half-heartedly in the late 60's and early 70's then again in the 90's as I recall. The 90's were received much better. The apprenticeships killed my own chances for with a family the pay schedule was what did the married man in. Now were the government to offer top-up for the married man there would be many takes I believe.

Hans
02-22-2016, 07:54 PM
We've had capitalism for a while now and it worked for a long time. If I could pin the rapid decline on something, I would pin it to technology more than capitalism itself. Socialism is definitely not a cure. It may solve one problem but it creates others.

I think you are wrong on that one. Capitalism is the problem, not technology.
The major problem we have is outsourcing of jobs to China and similar areas of the world, in order to make more corporate profits.

If I look around in my place of employment and see how back in the late 80's many components were made in Ontario, and see how some of those have been replaced with direct replacements now made in China or Mexico, I realize that capitalism is to blame for that trend.
Or if I see what happened when the Berlin wall came down and how many companies closed their doors and reopen the next day in a brand new plant in Poland, I realized once again that capitalism is the issue.

Until companies stop producing and building manufacturing plants in China and Mexico, we will keep bleeding jobs and keep going downhill.
What has to happen is the USA and Canada have to tax the crap out of anything made in Mexico or China, to offset "the benefits".

RWGR
02-23-2016, 04:49 PM
What has to happen is the USA and Canada have to tax the crap out of anything made in Mexico or China, to offset "the benefits".

That been happening forever.

Tariff of Abominations

Smoot-Hawley Tarriff

Governments impose high tariffs to protect their businesses all the time. Not saying it's a smart game plan, just that it's been with us for a long, long time; it's not some newly-discovered economic game-plan for anyone.

Hans
02-23-2016, 10:17 PM
Well, there is also Nafta, which we should get rid off. It is doing the opposite of what you just said. It allows Mexico to basically dump their cheaper products in NA.

RWGR
02-24-2016, 04:06 PM
Well, there is also Nafta, which we should get rid off. It is doing the opposite of what you just said.

Because NAFTA was created to do the opposite of those instances I described, because government protectionism was getting out of hand.

As usual, when trying to fix one ill the pendulum has swung too far the other way. Somewhere in the middle is just right.

http://image.slidesharecdn.com/goldilocksandthreebearcollaborativeactivity-140407215728-phpapp01/95/goldilocks-and-three-bear-story-collaborative-activity-8-638.jpg?cb=1396907952

The Chronic Liar
02-24-2016, 05:11 PM
Because NAFTA was created to do the opposite of those instances I described, because government protectionism was getting out of hand.

As usual, when trying to fix one ill the pendulum has swung too far the other way. Somewhere in the middle is just right.

http://image.slidesharecdn.com/goldilocksandthreebearcollaborativeactivity-140407215728-phpapp01/95/goldilocks-and-three-bear-story-collaborative-activity-8-638.jpg?cb=1396907952

LOL even a picture for a certain someone. What a nice gesture.

Barry Morris
02-24-2016, 06:55 PM
LOL even a picture for a certain someone. What a nice gesture.

Much more understandable for absent cats and their aliases!!! :) :) :)

Hans
02-24-2016, 08:39 PM
Because NAFTA was created to do the opposite of those instances I described, because government protectionism was getting out of hand.

As usual, when trying to fix one ill the pendulum has swung too far the other way. Somewhere in the middle is just right.

http://image.slidesharecdn.com/goldilocksandthreebearcollaborativeactivity-140407215728-phpapp01/95/goldilocks-and-three-bear-story-collaborative-activity-8-638.jpg?cb=1396907952

Government protectionism never get's out of hand. It is always the result of companies getting out of hand.

The Chronic Liar
02-24-2016, 09:12 PM
Much more understandable for absent cats and their aliases!!! :) :) :)

If the cat is absent, how would a picture be more understandable?

Barry Morris
02-24-2016, 09:29 PM
Government protectionism never get's out of hand. It is always the result of companies getting out of hand.

True. You never see government trying to make more profit!!!

RWGR
02-25-2016, 01:48 PM
Government protectionism never get's out of hand. It is always the result of companies getting out of hand.

Tell me you didn't type that with a straight face

Wait, you're European...you probably did

Barry Morris
02-25-2016, 02:26 PM
Tell me you didn't type that with a straight face

Wait, you're European...you probably did

Any chance you could say why that is wrong?

RWGR
02-25-2016, 02:40 PM
The tariffs I spoke of earlier

Hans
02-25-2016, 07:23 PM
Nafta is the opposite of tariffs. I do have to say the US is much better than Canada when it comes to ensuring a fair playing field with China.
However, Nafta is starting to erode that good part slowly.

Hopefully you will have President Trump soon, and hopefully he sticks with his idea to abandon Nafta.