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Bluesky
04-22-2016, 04:30 PM
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/04/160422-atheism-agnostic-secular-nones-rising-religion/

Barry Morris
04-22-2016, 05:57 PM
When the secular write about the decline of the religious, there are the usual generalities and ignorance.

Wishful thinking, mostly.

In my opinion, of course!! :) :) :)

Hans
04-22-2016, 07:59 PM
"There are a few theories about why people become atheists in large numbers. Some demographers attribute it to financial security, which would explain why European countries with a stronger social safety net are more secular than the United States, where poverty is more common and a medical emergency can bankrupt even the insured.
Atheism is also tied to education, measured by academic achievement (atheists in many places tend to have college degrees) or general knowledge of the panoply of beliefs around the world (hence theories that Internet access spurs atheism)."

I would make it simpler and say that knowledge is what spurs atheism.
It is the weakness of all major religions. It becomes just a matter of time before they are all coming to an end.

Barry Morris
04-22-2016, 10:01 PM
"There are a few theories about why people become atheists in large numbers. Some demographers attribute it to financial security, which would explain why European countries with a stronger social safety net are more secular than the United States, where poverty is more common and a medical emergency can bankrupt even the insured.
Atheism is also tied to education, measured by academic achievement (atheists in many places tend to have college degrees) or general knowledge of the panoply of beliefs around the world (hence theories that Internet access spurs atheism)."

I would make it simpler and say that knowledge is what spurs atheism.
It is the weakness of all major religions. It becomes just a matter of time before they are all coming to an end.

We've heard that for a very long time, Hans!!! Yours are wishful thought too!!!

"Knowledge .... spurs atheism" only when one has more faith than the religious.

Hans
04-24-2016, 02:30 AM
It is inevitable as knowledge and logic are expanding with time.

Bluesky
04-24-2016, 06:56 AM
It becomes just a matter of time before they are all coming to an end.

This is not what is happening outside of the western world. In EUrope amd NA, there is a decrease in numbers of religious people. In the East and the middle East, the numbers are going in the opposite diretion, even as China is getting better educated. In other words, your speculation is wrong :)

Barry Morris
04-24-2016, 09:10 AM
We hear this all the time from an increasingly secularised media.

What other reports could one expect??

Hans
04-24-2016, 04:22 PM
This is not what is happening outside of the western world. In EUrope amd NA, there is a decrease in numbers of religious people. In the East and the middle East, the numbers are going in the opposite diretion, even as China is getting better educated. In other words, your speculation is wrong :)

Yes, but those regions are/were subjected to religions that are either very strict, or state controlled religions.
It is common for religions that offer more freedom to become popular in regions were new freedom is found.

Since the West, NA and Europe has already past that apex of the curve, they are now on a downwards slope.

It is inevitable and a result of evolving.

Hans
04-24-2016, 04:22 PM
We hear this all the time from an increasingly secularised media.

What other reports could one expect??

You heard it from me, not some media outlet.

Bluesky
04-24-2016, 10:41 PM
Yes, but those regions are/were subjected to religions that are either very strict, or state controlled religions.
It is common for religions that offer more freedom to become popular in regions were new freedom is found.

Since the West, NA and Europe has already past that apex of the curve, they are now on a downwards slope.

It is inevitable and a result of evolving.That there is a rise and fall to the popularity of religion is self-evident. I know some church history - it is not predictable when the church will rise or fall. Sometimes it is as you say, and sometimes it is not. There was a lot of freedom just prior to the Great Awakening (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Great_Awakening) in the U.S. And then the Second great Awakening came. Different circumstance, lots of freedom.

So your theory is not very solid.

Hans
04-24-2016, 11:35 PM
Solid and valid are two different words.
We will speak again 500 years from now.

Barry Morris
04-25-2016, 12:07 AM
Solid and valid are two different words.
We will speak again 500 years from now.

If we lived that long, and we spoke, I might be admitting you were right.

But one of the things that leads me to believe that trouble is coming soon, as in biblical trouble, is that, for the first time in history, man has the capability of destroying himself.

Bluesky
04-25-2016, 08:49 AM
Solid and valid are two different words.


Agreed. Your argument may be valid. But without evidence it is not solid.

We will speak again 500 years from now.

I doubt it. But it would be great if you could join me in heaven. :)

RWGR
04-25-2016, 09:32 AM
I doubt it. But it would be great if you could join me in heaven. :)

You're quite sure of that...tsk, tsk :)

Even Pope JPII asked for prayers so he may be found acceptable to God as a person worthy of eternal life with Him.

The Bible says to work out our salvation 'with fear and trembling'. To me that is also saying 'woe to those who simply assume eternal life is their's.

Bluesky
04-25-2016, 10:31 AM
According to RCC teaching, if I am in a state of grace, and have not committed a mortal sin, I am saved, correct?

RWGR
04-25-2016, 11:18 AM
It would appear as so, but again it can only be a hope, not a definitive statement, because who can truly know the mind of God?

The RCC teaches no guarantees, only hope, and hope, and hope founded in great expectations.

99%, but never 100%

Hans
04-25-2016, 05:40 PM
Agreed. Your argument may be valid. But without evidence it is not solid.


I doubt it. But it would be great if you could join me in heaven. :)

Could also be joining you in hell, you never know.
But all kidding aside, we will simply seize to exist and that will be that.

Barry Morris
04-25-2016, 06:32 PM
Could also be joining you in hell, you never know.
But all kidding aside, we will simply seize to exist and that will be that.

Cease.

That takes more faith than I have.

Hans
04-25-2016, 06:59 PM
On the contrary. It is perfectly logical.
You were already in a non existent state before you were born. You will be returning to that state.

Bluesky
04-25-2016, 07:10 PM
It would appear as so, but again it can only be a hope, not a definitive statement, because who can truly know the mind of God?

The RCC teaches no guarantees, only hope, and hope, and hope founded in great expectations.

99%, but never 100%
It can be as definite as the promises in God's Word.

He that believes on the Son HAS eternal life.

Bluesky
04-25-2016, 07:11 PM
On the contrary. It is perfectly logical.
You were already in a non existent state before you were born. You will be returning to that state.

Admit it Hans, you have no idea what happens to you after you die.

Hans
04-25-2016, 07:54 PM
Admit it Hans, you have no idea what happens to you after you die.

See, this is an interesting topic.
I am assuming you do not believe in a before life, only an after life?

Bluesky
04-25-2016, 10:56 PM
That assumption is correct, yes. If I believed in Mormon doctrine, I might have given you a different answer.

RWGR
04-26-2016, 09:25 AM
It can be as definite as the promises in God's Word.

He that believes on the Son HAS eternal life.

Satan believes in Jesus. If he didn't believe Jesus is truly the Son of God, the Savior of man, he would not be Christ's "Anti".

Will Satan have eternal life?

RWGR
04-26-2016, 09:30 AM
I believe in Jesus.

I do NOTHING he wishes for us to do while on our sojourn on earth.

Am I saved?

Bluesky
04-26-2016, 02:05 PM
I believe in Jesus.

I do NOTHING he wishes for us to do while on our sojourn on earth.

Am I saved?

Nope. Because you are doing nothing that he wants you to do, you don't really believe, do you?

Believing IN HIM, means believing and doing what He says. It's that simple.

What you are describing is your classic hypocrite.

RWGR
04-26-2016, 02:20 PM
Nope. Because you are doing nothing that he wants you to do, you don't really believe, do you?

Believing IN HIM, means believing and doing what He says. It's that simple.

What you are describing is your classic hypocrite.

So just believing in Him is not enough, that's my point.

Hans
04-26-2016, 06:04 PM
That assumption is correct, yes. If I believed in Mormon doctrine, I might have given you a different answer.

So, how is the logical? Why should there be life after death, but not before birth?

Barry Morris
04-26-2016, 08:49 PM
So, how is the logical? Why should there be life after death, but not before birth?

There IS life before birth. Only life can create life.

A man and a woman join their lives and make a new being, in which God places a soul.

And I believe that this self awareness I have will continue.

Hans
04-26-2016, 08:56 PM
I was talking about your life before birth. Or are you saying you were dead before birth and somehow came alive when you were born?

Barry Morris
04-26-2016, 09:02 PM
No Hans, read carefully. Not existing is not the same as being dead.

Hans
04-26-2016, 09:11 PM
So we share the same beliefs: you cease to exist when you are dead, making you "not existing", as opposed to existing.

Barry Morris
04-26-2016, 10:14 PM
So we share the same beliefs: you cease to exist when you are dead, making you "not existing", as opposed to existing.

Hardly. Nice twist, even you can see how silly you sound!!

Hans
04-26-2016, 11:21 PM
Why? Because it is logical to either think both ways the same instead of different?

Barry Morris
04-27-2016, 05:37 AM
Why? Because it is logical to either think both ways the same instead of different?

Is it??? Is non-existing the same as dead?? Hardly.

No logical person would think that those not yet born are dead.

Or do you PREFER to think of yourself as a murderer for not having more children!!! :) :) :)

Hans
04-27-2016, 07:28 AM
I did not use the term dead, I used the term non existent.

Barry Morris
04-27-2016, 11:10 AM
I did not use the term dead, I used the term non existent.

You said, "Because it is logical to either think both ways the same instead of different?"

Since you are obviously trying to be the logical one, your implication is clear.

RWGR
04-27-2016, 11:13 AM
I would say the label "logical one" automatically applies to him, simply because who is conversing with

Bluesky
04-27-2016, 01:30 PM
Yeesh! That's all I've got to say.

RWGR
04-27-2016, 06:22 PM
Is that Yiddish?

Hans
04-27-2016, 08:06 PM
You said, "Because it is logical to either think both ways the same instead of different?"

Since you are obviously trying to be the logical one, your implication is clear.

I think you misunderstood my implication.

If you believe in an after-life that occurs after natural death, why is it not logical to think about a pre-life before birth? What would be the difference between pre-life and after-life besides the order of occurrence?
Now if you believe in cease to exist after natural death, it is only logical to believe in non existing before birth. Both states would be the same, just in a different order.

However, if you believe in an after-life but not a pre-life there is no rhyme or reason why only the after-life would exist. It is illogical.

And that is all that I am saying.

Barry Morris
04-27-2016, 08:43 PM
I think you misunderstood my implication.

If you believe in an after-life that occurs after natural death, why is it not logical to think about a pre-life before birth? What would be the difference between pre-life and after-life besides the order of occurrence?
Now if you believe in cease to exist after natural death, it is only logical to believe in non existing before birth. Both states would be the same, just in a different order.

However, if you believe in an after-life but not a pre-life there is no rhyme or reason why only the after-life would exist. It is illogical.

And that is all that I am saying.

My point of view is that life starts at conception, and there is no reason to believe it stops.

That would be God's way of doing things, so I'm cool with it.

RWGR
04-28-2016, 09:29 AM
That would be God's way of doing things, so I'm cool with it.


(God wipes his brow ) "PHEW!!"

Bluesky
04-29-2016, 04:09 PM
So just believing in Him is not enough, that's my point.

That is NOT what I said. Clever attempt though.
I said, your example was not an example of genuine faith.

Yes, genuinely believing Him is enough. He said so Himself.
12*But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, John 1:12

Check out this video. It's not very long. This fellow teaches at Oxford.


https://www.facebook.com/lawsonheightsalliance/videos/1082602351763089/

Hans
04-29-2016, 09:27 PM
Well, if John said it it must be true.

Barry Morris
04-29-2016, 10:27 PM
That is NOT what I said. Clever attempt though.
I said, your example was not an example of genuine faith.

Yes, genuinely believing Him is enough. He said so Himself.
12*But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, John 1:12

Check out this video. It's not very long. This fellow teaches at Oxford.


https://www.facebook.com/lawsonheightsalliance/videos/1082602351763089/

"..become children of God." As in born again. As in NOT illegitimate.

And a child NEVER becomes NOT a child!!!

Bluesky
04-30-2016, 10:02 AM
Well, if John said it it must be true.

Hans, RWGR and I share the belief that the Bible is the Word of God, and thus is true.
We know that you do not believe that. You are free to deny it. This is an item of faith. It cannot be 'proven' the way you would like to see.

Hans
04-30-2016, 08:03 PM
I am not denying anything.
However, you are denying yourself facts. Facts that I would like to see anyone dispute:

- Books of the Bible were written by people, with their own hands and writing material(s).
- Bible is a collection of those books, picked and put together by people.

In other words, it is a work of human creation, the human mind.

Bluesky
04-30-2016, 10:46 PM
I do not deny that. What i would deny is that human authorship and caanonization was merely the result of human effort. I believe God influenced that process all the way.

RWGR
05-01-2016, 08:03 AM
That is NOT what I said. Clever attempt though.
I said, your example was not an example of genuine faith.

Yes, genuinely believing Him is enough. He said so Himself.
12*But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, John 1:12

Check out this video. It's not very long. This fellow teaches at Oxford.


https://www.facebook.com/lawsonheightsalliance/videos/1082602351763089/

Just believing is not enough.

Satan believes in Jesus.

He's saved?

If not, why not?

RWGR
05-01-2016, 01:06 PM
Believing IN HIM, means believing and doing what He says. It's that simple.





"and" means in addition to



Step one: believe in Him

Step two: do what He says.

Lots of people get to step one. Far less get to step two.

Just believing is not enough.

Hans
05-01-2016, 03:14 PM
I do not deny that. What i would deny is that human authorship and caanonization was merely the result of human effort. I believe God influenced that process all the way.

Fair enough, that is where your opinion and mine differ.

Bluesky
05-01-2016, 04:39 PM
If i tell you, "Don't go down that dark alley or you will be mugged."

You say, "I believe you" and proceed down the alley anyway, and get mugged, did you believe me? Did you trust me? Obviously not.

You believe in my existence. But you did not believe or trust in what i said.

This is the difference between belief that does not save, abd belief that does save.

Jesus says, "Follow me."

We say, "Sure thing".

Yet we dont follow Him.

Do we believe him? Trust Him?

RWGR
05-01-2016, 06:55 PM
Satan believes Jesus is the savior of man, does he not?

Bluesky
05-01-2016, 11:48 PM
. Saviour of demons and devils, now we are really talking apples and oranges.

Bluesky
05-01-2016, 11:49 PM
I have no knowledge of his awareness of the efficacy of Christ's redemptive work. Christ died for mankind, not for devils and angels.

RWGR
05-02-2016, 10:58 AM
Why would he be the "anti-Christ" if he was not totally aware of who Christ is?

You know Satan is considered highly-intelligent. To say you're not sure if he knows of Christ's redemptive work is a cop-out, pure and simple.

RWGR
05-02-2016, 10:59 AM
. Saviour of demons and devils, now we are really taking apples and oranges.

You're moving the goalposts.

Bluesky
05-03-2016, 12:12 PM
No. Actually you did. I was talking about the redemption of humans,
You brought in demons and devils.

RWGR
05-03-2016, 12:17 PM
Ooops, I thought we were on the Pastor survey thread