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RWGR
05-02-2016, 11:17 AM
Do you subscribe to the idea of the Rapture, or the belief that Christians will be removed from Earth and raised to heaven during the Second Coming of Jesus Christ? If you said no to this question, you share the scepticism of most Protestant pastors.

According to a new study by LifeWay Research, most Protestant pastors do not subscribe to the idea of the Rapture even though they agree on the Second Coming of Christ.

Out of the 1,000 senior Protestant preachers who participated in the survey, only over a third or 36 percent believe that Christians will disappear at the start of the Apocalypse while those left behind will suffer from the Tribulation, the Christian doctrine on the period of time before the Second Coming when believers will experience worldwide persecution and be purified and strengthened by it.

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/most.protestant.pastors.dont.believe.in.the.raptur e.but.agree.on.second.coming.of.christ.survey.show s/85148.htm

RWGR
05-02-2016, 11:19 AM
Twelve percent of all Protestant pastors surveyed meanwhile were of the belief that there is no individual Antichrist. Seven percent of the respondents for their part said the Antichrist will be an institution and not necessarily a single individual.

Six percent of Protestant pastors believe that the Antichrist is a figure "who already arose sometime in the past."


Sola Scriptura

Barney Rubble
05-02-2016, 12:13 PM
I am a Christian , which means ,as far as I am concerned....a follower of Christ
I am neither protestant nor rcc &, if i must be labelled, I suppose I would label myself as above ...non denominational "follower of Christ thus Christian"
I am sola scriptura if to be labelled because i must believe in scripture only & not dogma or vain teachings of men
i do not believe in the doctrine of a rapture
i fail to see why this has to be a protestant / rcc issue as i am sure there are catholics that dont believe in a rapture as well?
why all the concern??

RWGR
05-02-2016, 12:14 PM
Sorry, I thought this was a religion forum where such articles could be posted.

RWGR
05-02-2016, 12:15 PM
I am sola scriptura if to labelled because i must believe in scripture only & not dogma or vain teachings of men


Just your own vain teachings?

How...convenient.

Barney Rubble
05-02-2016, 12:26 PM
not to argue but isnt the rcc revolved around traditions and teachings of their leaders as well so why do you say "my own vain teachings"?
i am sorry that i should be allowed to interpret the Bible without someone telling me how to...i am also sorry that. historically, members of your faith stepped beyond their bounds to translate the Bible so that I might be able to read it & understand
I do know that:

you must accept that CHRIST is the ONE mediator between man and GOD
i do know that if if I accept HIM as Saviour & follow HIS ways, I am saved & have the faith in so
i do know that my conscience convicts me to do his will which is mostly....love GOD with all thy strength, thy might & with all thy heart...the 2nd is to love thy neighbour...from which all the commandments are built

i dont think they are my teachings nor are they rcc or protestant...they are scriptural & hold no denomination

RWGR
05-02-2016, 12:32 PM
not to argue but isnt the rcc revolved around traditions and teachings of their leaders as well so why do you say "my own vain teachings"?

Barney, the Bible is basically oral traditions eventually transcribed. Oral tradition defined the Jewish experience of the OT. Eventually these stories, etc, were written down; but at one time they were oral tradition.

The Gospels are oral tradition, eventually transcribed in written form. No one followed Jesus writing down exactly what He said. It would be decades later before they were written. And what did we rely on? oral stories.

So, you can rely on the two thousand years of teachings of the Church, or your own understanding of it all.

I can pick my understanding, or the understanding of Augustine, Aquinas, etc. To me, it's not even a choice.


i am sorry that i should be allowed to interpret the Bible without someone telling me how to

And look at the results: thousands of denominations, each differing in one way or another. Sola Scriptura has been a massive failure, the fact of this is all around us.


...i am also sorry that. historically, members of your faith stepped beyond their bounds to translate the Bible so that I might be able to read it & understand

No idea what you're getting at here.


i dont think they are my teachings?

Some are not, that is true. But some are.

Sola Scriptura is not in the Bible. Right off the bat you contradict yourself.

RWGR
05-02-2016, 12:42 PM
Just look at the subject of this thread.

Why such a wide-ranging interpretation of what the Rapture is, or if it's even real? Certainly each Protestant minister relied on Sola Scriptura and the guidance of the Holy Spirit in getting it right.

But they're all over the map. Why? Did the Holy Spirit confuse them with His teachings? Or did they confuse each other with their own teachings?

The answer seems very clear.

Barney Rubble
05-02-2016, 01:03 PM
i know that you know sola scriptura means to rest solely on scripture...of course the words sola scriptura are not in The Bible but neither is the word rapture as well

the old testament is not an issue here (except for the prophecy of a coming Christ) but, as I said , I follow CHRIST thus my reading is more leaned towards NT

CHRIST did say that HE was the CHRIST & John 14:6 is just one example...for me to not believe this because it was written by a man decades later is, in my opinion, to call that man a liar & thus CHRIST a liar

All I need in The Bible is CHRIST's words...HE said He is The CHRIST & when asked if HE was The Son Of GOD, HE said "I AM".
Don't need a church leader to tell me what HE really meant by that.

to say that all the troubles have been caused by interpretaions of The Bible..i agree...but... are you calling for a controlled system whereas I am supposed to believe what I am taught to believe by someone that is so-called smarter than i...i am not able to handle the truth?

To argue that The Bible is only oral tradions is more of an atheist stand IMO.
Just because they were oral & eventually written does not deny spiritual guidance...if not, what hope do we have? what is there to believe in if we can not believe these writings?

Also...understanding of Augustine, Aquinas, etc...who is to say that they were spiritually guided? And yet I am not saying that they were not. must I have faith in such?

i would rather have faith in the writings of the books of Paul than the teachings or words of any other man whether rcc or protestant or any other church.

Barney Rubble
05-02-2016, 01:16 PM
Even in CHRIST's time there was different beliefs,,,,Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes.
After HIS death and resurrection, there was disputes amongs the early church
There was dissention amongst the Early catholic church as well, thus the constant changing of worship
there has always been dissention....i dont think it solely happened because of the Protestant Reformation

Barry Morris
05-02-2016, 02:18 PM
Actually Barney, the word rapture IS scriptural.

Barney Rubble
05-02-2016, 02:33 PM
where?

are u saying:

For the record, the word "rapture" comes from the Latin word rapturo, which is a translation of the Greek verb "caught up" that's found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

you say rapture. I say gathering. still doesnt prove the doctrine of pre-trib gathering "rapture".
you say potato. I say spud.
not a "saving" doctrine whether believed or not but is dangerous for the believer (shake the faith) who believes it & only to find they might still be around during the trib....just sayin

any hoot...i see now that this is not a rapture thread but, rather, a thread about the lack of common belief amongst the different denomenations...always has always will....beware wolves in sheep's clothing & by their fruits you may know them.

RWGR
05-02-2016, 06:03 PM
Even in CHRIST's time there was different beliefs,,,,Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes.
After HIS death and resurrection, there was disputes amongs the early church
There was dissention amongst the Early catholic church as well,

Yes there was, and it took the councils to pronounce what exactly was heresy and what was not. The same type of council, Barney, that put together the Bible, three hundred years after Christ walked the earth.

You can decry the Catholic councils, but at the same time it was just such a council that gave you the Bible you reference every day.

As for SS not being in the Bible, you simply wave it off as if it's no big deal. Now think about that for a second: in telling me all you need is what's in the Bible, you wave off the fact, as not a big deal, that the very doctrine that claims "Bible alone", SS, isn't in the Bible.

Think about that for a minute.

You defeat your own argument.

That's the fruits of trying to defend a self-refuting doctrine.

RWGR
05-02-2016, 06:04 PM
beware wolves in sheep's clothing & by their fruits you may know them.

methinks it would be difficult to find a phrase that defines Martin Luther better!

Anapeg
05-02-2016, 07:12 PM
The phrase sola scriptura is from the Latin: sola having the idea of “alone,” “ground,” “base,” and the word scriptura meaning “writings”—referring to the Scriptures. Sola scriptura means that Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian. The Bible is complete, authoritative, and true. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16).

Sola scriptura was the rallying cry of the Protestant Reformation. For centuries, the Roman Catholic Church had made its traditions superior in authority to the Bible. This resulted in many practices that were in fact contradictory to the Bible. Some examples are prayer to saints and/or Mary, the immaculate conception, transubstantiation, infant baptism, indulgences, and papal authority.

Not my circus, not my monkies but this does seem to offer up some logical thought on the subject.

Barry Morris
05-02-2016, 08:32 PM
where?

are u saying:

For the record, the word "rapture" comes from the Latin word rapturo, which is a translation of the Greek verb "caught up" that's found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

you say rapture. I say gathering. still doesnt prove the doctrine of pre-trib gathering "rapture".
you say potato. I say spud.
not a "saving" doctrine whether believed or not but is dangerous for the believer (shake the faith) who believes it & only to find they might still be around during the trib....just sayin

any hoot...i see now that this is not a rapture thread but, rather, a thread about the lack of common belief amongst the different denomenations...always has always will....beware wolves in sheep's clothing & by their fruits you may know them.

I never mentioned pre or post. As you say, it's not a salvation doctrine.
Some like to make a big deal about differences of opinion. And the rest of us don't.

RWGR
05-03-2016, 09:59 AM
The phrase sola scriptura is from the Latin: sola having the idea of “alone,” “ground,” “base,” and the word scriptura meaning “writings”—referring to the Scriptures. Sola scriptura means that Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian. The Bible is complete, authoritative, and true. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16).

Sola scriptura was the rallying cry of the Protestant Reformation. For centuries, the Roman Catholic Church had made its traditions superior in authority to the Bible. This resulted in many practices that were in fact contradictory to the Bible. Some examples are prayer to saints and/or Mary, the immaculate conception, transubstantiation, infant baptism, indulgences, and papal authority.

Not my circus, not my monkies but this does seem to offer up some logical thought on the subject.

Well, it's not, because the RCC never made its traditions "superior" to the Bible, it says they are equal. And why are they equal? Because the Bible was, in its original form, a series of oral traditions. They are one and the same, in a sense.

I would seriously question the bias of your source.

Bluesky
05-03-2016, 11:27 AM
Instead of arguing with each other about your beliefs, without ever referring to the Scriptural texts themselves, which members here are prone to do, it would be more instructive to actually quote the verses that provide the basis for your beliefs, and then argue if you must about the interpretation of those verses.

So, here are the texts involved.

1 Corinthians 15
50*I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51*Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52*in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53*For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

1 Thess 4

13*But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14*For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15*For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16*For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17*Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18*Therefore encourage one another with these words.

So the text is saying that at a point in time (unknown to us)
Jesus will return from heaven, at which time he will raise the faithful dead, and will "snatch up"(literal meaning of the Greek word "arpadzo") those of his who are alive and remain at that time, and they will all meet the Lord in the air, and thus begins our eternal existence for this of Christ's disciples.

Notice, there is nothing in the text about timing, so whether this is pre mid, post trib, or whatever is not the question that these two passages deal with.

If you do not agree with that, you must give different definitions to the words, or you must give those words a metaphorical meaning. If you do give them a metaphorical meaning, you have to offer a reason for making it a metaphor. Try hard to set your biases aside. Just deal with the text.

RWGR
05-03-2016, 11:31 AM
That assumes biblical text is easily understood, which it obviously is not in many areas.

So, instead of trying to shift the focus away from why so many colleagues disagree with you, why don't you try to address it, instead of callously waving off something that causes you trouble, as you are wont to do?

So, more than half of Protestant pastors are not smart enough to figure out what certain texts are saying?

What does that say about the educational level of many Protestant pastors?

Bluesky
05-03-2016, 12:08 PM
Hmm, I wonder whether Athansius had to deal with the same argument. Maybe that's why it was Athanasius contra mundum.

I am not arguing with thousands of other Protestant pastors and theologians here. I am arguing with you.
If the whole world of Christianity believes that we get to play golf in heaven, and yet the text says nothing about it, I won't believe it.

Deal with the text. That's the basis for my beliefs. That's all I've got.

RWGR
05-03-2016, 12:10 PM
But the basis of the thread is the survey. Surely that invites some discussion?

Bluesky
05-03-2016, 12:11 PM
Not interested in popular opinion.

RWGR
05-03-2016, 12:18 PM
You're avoiding the issue.

Why is there such a divergence on opinion? Did the Holy Spirit confuse them? Are they unworthy to be pastors if their education is so lacking?

Bluesky
05-03-2016, 02:49 PM
You're avoiding the issue.

Why is there such a divergence on opinion? Did the Holy Spirit confuse them? Are they unworthy to be pastors if their education is so lacking?

The same reason there is a lot of divergent views on almost any issue. Different interpretations. Some are more plausible than others.

Did you want me to do a massive research project to discover why various churches and denominations reject one interpretation in favour of another? You're asking the question. You tell me.

Then would you like to deal with the text?

RWGR
05-03-2016, 02:56 PM
The same reason there is a lot of divergent views on almost any issue. Different interpretations. Some are more plausible than others.

Did you want me to do a massive research project to discover why various churches and denominations reject one interpretation in favour of another? You're asking the question. You tell me.

Then would you like to deal with the text?

We've dealt with the text a few weeks ago.

So, our understanding of the Bible basically comes down to a crapshoot: hope you get it right, but a chance you won't.

You truly believe the God of all Creation, He who says his name is I AM, works that way???

Jesus promised the Holy Spirit, to teach, guide, and lead us from error. It's apparent Sola Scriptura isn't the channel He works through.

I've said it before, I backed into Catholicism at first more out of what Protestantism lacked than what Catholicism had to offer.

Bluesky
05-03-2016, 06:57 PM
So why do you keep coming back once we have reached an impasse? Find something new to talk about.

RWGR
05-04-2016, 10:16 AM
Ahhh yes, this is where Mr Ego gets upset, because he's not allowed to make all the rules!

Bluesky
05-04-2016, 11:56 AM
I see your petulance has returned.
You have demonstrated maturity on occasion.
Let me know when you get there again. Till then, ciao.

RWGR
05-04-2016, 12:36 PM
And when cornered, he leaves.

Lay Catholic corners and traps a Protestant minister, part 15 :) :) :)

Barry Morris
05-08-2016, 02:16 PM
As long as you insist on majoring on minors, you can claim this.

But it's false.

RWGR
05-08-2016, 06:46 PM
LOL, again...anyone??

Barry Morris
05-10-2016, 01:07 AM
Hasn't a certain denomination changed what their people MUST believe, over the years?? Seems odd to me.

Is there a rapture. Yes, scripture says so, and I sure hope SOMETHING happens, because it also says the earth will be gone!!

I'll need a new place to live!!! :) :) :)

RWGR
05-11-2016, 03:53 PM
Hasn't a certain denomination changed what their people MUST believe, over the years??

You don't have to believe anything. But if you want to be a RC you will believe what she teaches and her dogmas. What a nice change of pace from the chaos and confusion that is Protestantism.

Is there a rapture. Yes, scripture says so, and I sure hope SOMETHING happens, because it also says the earth will be gone!!

The passage that mentions a new heaven and new earth does not mention a "rapture".

Barry Morris
05-11-2016, 07:11 PM
Hasn't a certain denomination changed what their people MUST believe, over the years??

You don't have to believe anything. But if you want to be a RC you will believe what she teaches and her dogmas. What a nice change of pace from the chaos and confusion that is Protestantism.

Is there a rapture. Yes, scripture says so, and I sure hope SOMETHING happens, because it also says the earth will be gone!!

The passage that mentions a new heaven and new earth does not mention a "rapture".

Yup, have to believe the changes she makes, too!! Even the ones that contradict Scripture. Talk about chaos and confusion!! What will you HAVE to believe next?? No way of knowing!!

Does not mention a rapture"?? But Scripture does, much as you hate it, and I guess you'll be left with no place to go!!

RWGR
05-11-2016, 07:14 PM
Yup, have to believe the changes she makes, too!! Even the ones that contradict Scripture.

You mean like believing in "Bible alone", when the Bible never says "Bible alone?"

:) :) :)

Talk about chaos and confusion!! What will you HAVE to believe next?? No way of knowing!!

The RCC has been clear and consistent in her teachings. Protestantism has been anything but. In fact, your church will believe whatever it is the current pastor says.

It's quite sad, really.

Does not mention a rapture"?? But Scripture does

Where?

RWGR
05-11-2016, 07:27 PM
Let's see what the founder of Protestantism thought of the Book of Revelation:



“To my mind it (the book of the Apocalypse) bears upon it no marks of an apostolic or prophetic character… Everyone may form his own judgment of this book; as for myself, I feel an aversion to it, and to me this is sufficient reason for rejecting it.” (ref. ammtliche Werke, 63, pp. 169-170, ‘The Facts About Luther,’ O’Hare, TAN Books, 1987, p. 203).




well...that's got to be a bit troubling to you cats!!

Barry Morris
05-11-2016, 08:21 PM
Yup, have to believe the changes she makes, too!! Even the ones that contradict Scripture.

You mean like believing in "Bible alone", when the Bible never says "Bible alone?"

:) :) :)

Talk about chaos and confusion!! What will you HAVE to believe next?? No way of knowing!!

The RCC has been clear and consistent in her teachings. Protestantism has been anything but. In fact, your church will believe whatever it is the current pastor says.

It's quite sad, really.

Does not mention a rapture"?? But Scripture does

Where?

Clear and consistent?? Did you change denominations??

As to "rapture", we went through that weeks ago. Translated from the original language. or did the Roman catholic "bible" toss it out??

By the way, the bible says "All have sinned". The RCC says Mary did not, without ANY scriptural basis. Except the absurdity of her logic.

RWGR
05-12-2016, 09:47 AM
By the way, the bible says "All have sinned". The RCC says Mary did not, without ANY scriptural basis. Except the absurdity of her logic.

You believe God would be in a sinful womb?

the angel greeted Mary with "Hail, FULL of grace..."

Of course, this is too deep for your shallow Protestant waters.

Toe good news is, once a new minister comes to your church you be able to believe lots of other new stuff!! :) :) :)

RWGR
05-12-2016, 09:48 AM
By the way, the bible says "All have sinned". The RCC says Mary did not, without ANY scriptural basis. Except the absurdity of her logic.

You believe God would be in a sinful womb?

the angel greeted Mary with "Hail, FULL of grace..."

How can a person with sin be "FULL" of grace?

Of course, this is too deep for your shallow Protestant waters.

Toe good news is, once a new minister comes to your church you be able to believe lots of other new stuff!! :) :) :)

Barry Morris
05-12-2016, 10:21 AM
You believe God would be in a sinful womb?

the angel greeted Mary with "Hail, FULL of grace..."

How can a person with sin be "FULL" of grace?

Of course, this is too deep for your shallow Protestant waters.

Toe good news is, once a new minister comes to your church you be able to believe lots of other new stuff!! :) :) :)

Show me scripture that God could not be in the womb of one of His creations, even if she was a sinner, AS THE BIBLE SAYS!!!

How can a person 'full of grace" be a sinner?? Same way as a murderer, David, could be a "man after God's own heart"!!

Re the new minister, stop showing your ignorance, you just look silly.

RWGR
05-12-2016, 11:53 AM
Show me scripture that God could not be in the womb of one of His creations, even if she was a sinner, AS THE BIBLE SAYS!!!

you want me to show you God cannot be around sin. Am I really, truly reading this correctly??

How can a person 'full of grace" be a sinner?? Same way as a murderer, David, could be a "man after God's own heart"!!

Two very different things. What a weak defense.

Re the new minister, stop showing your ignorance, you just look silly

Translation: "RWGR's right"

Barry Morris
05-12-2016, 05:12 PM
Nope, nope and nope!!!

Any REAL Roman Catholics out there??

RWGR
05-12-2016, 05:24 PM
Do not let your anger get in the way of the education I am giving you now.

Barry Morris
05-12-2016, 05:43 PM
Do not let your anger get in the way of the education I am giving you now.

You'd have to know your bible before you could educate anyone on it.

RWGR
05-12-2016, 05:44 PM
And I know it much, much better than you, that has been abundantly clear for some time now.

So, as you stall until Blue gets here to rescue you, what else you want to talk about?

Barry Morris
05-12-2016, 11:15 PM
Homosexuality??

RWGR
05-14-2016, 06:57 PM
Hey, whatever puts your mind at ease, BM :) :) :)





Remember, we will never judge you

Barry Morris
05-14-2016, 07:16 PM
Hey, whatever puts your mind at ease, BM :) :) :)





Remember, we will never judge you

My nine grandkids will be surprised!!!!

Barry Morris
05-14-2016, 08:11 PM
I am curious.

Is all your teaching rote??

You just tell the kids your opinion, and they regurgitate it at exam time??

What happens if any of them asks for proof, "Because I said so" gets the job done??

Hans
05-15-2016, 05:27 AM
But, I thought you were one of those people who does not need proof?

RWGR
05-15-2016, 09:47 AM
My nine grandkids will be surprised!!!!

Just like Caitlyn Jenners!

RWGR
05-15-2016, 09:49 AM
I am curious.

Is all your teaching rote??

You just tell the kids your opinion, and they regurgitate it at exam time??

What happens if any of them asks for proof, "Because I said so" gets the job done??

The 1950s called, they'd like their attitude towards teaching back.

No one has taught rote for decades. Now it's all about critical thinking, forming opinions, etc.

Barry Morris
05-15-2016, 09:49 AM
But, I thought you were one of those people who does not need proof?

You don't actually read anything I post, do you.

That's OK.

Barry Morris
05-15-2016, 09:50 AM
The 1950s called, they'd like their attitude towards teaching back.

No one has taught rote for decades. Now it's all about critical thinking, forming opinions, etc.

Sure as heck ain't from what I see from you!!!

RWGR
05-15-2016, 09:54 AM
Sure as heck ain't from what I see from you!!!

Your anger is justified.

Your high school diploma, not so much :) :) :)

Barry Morris
05-15-2016, 01:31 PM
Your anger is justified.

Your high school diploma, not so much :) :) :)

Who gets angry at fools??

RWGR
05-15-2016, 05:40 PM
Not us, we love having you here!! :) :) :)

Hans
05-15-2016, 05:54 PM
You don't actually read anything I post, do you.

That's OK.

I do. Every time it comes down to proof, you state you believe and don't need proof.
There are countless threads to support that.

Barry Morris
05-15-2016, 11:14 PM
I do. Every time it comes down to proof, you state you believe and don't need proof.
There are countless threads to support that.

Then it should be no problem for you to repeat back to me what I believe.

Please give an example.

Hans
05-15-2016, 11:39 PM
Really?
ok, here we go.


There IS life before birth. Only life can create life.

A man and a woman join their lives and make a new being, in which God places a soul.

And I believe that this self awareness I have will continue.

Barry Morris
05-16-2016, 12:24 AM
Really?
ok, here we go.

And why would I need proof for that???

Hans
05-16-2016, 07:27 AM
Because you pick when you want proof and when you don't want proof.
You are someone who flips back and forth to whatever suits your needs.
I always want proof.

Barry Morris
05-16-2016, 08:31 AM
Because you pick when you want proof and when you don't want proof.
You are someone who flips back and forth to whatever suits your needs.
I always want proof.

My bottom line is that this universe didn't pop into being from nothing. That's not proof, it's just logic. Because of THAT belief, many other things fall into place, most of which have proofs of some kind.

It seems to me that your bottom line is your belief that there is no God, and that the universe just popped into being from nothing. The foundation of your belief is illogical, and as a result any proof of supernatural activity can be and is rejected.

And a god who stooped to prove every little thing to his creation wouldn't be much of a god, would he??

Faith and belief helps, but trust is paramount. I trust in God.

Hans
05-16-2016, 05:56 PM
Your statement "didn't pop into being from nothing" is what you choose when it fits you, when you want to claim it is logic. Then you change it into belief.
As soon as I say, he wait a minute, how come God can "pop into being from nothing", you change arguments and come up with some kind of explanation how that is possible. But only that. Anything else cannot pop into being from nothing.

The fact that by your own logic God cannot have popped into being from nothing either, is ignored when it fits your arguments.
Now who is being illogical here?

Hans
05-16-2016, 06:00 PM
In fact, the more I think about it, the more sense it makes that if you believe in God you believe that something can come into being from nothing.
It would be the only logical explanation for the existence of God.

Without that principle, any theories involving God would not be possible.

Barry Morris
05-16-2016, 07:54 PM
Your statement "didn't pop into being from nothing" is what you choose when it fits you, when you want to claim it is logic. Then you change it into belief.
As soon as I say, he wait a minute, how come God can "pop into being from nothing", you change arguments and come up with some kind of explanation how that is possible. But only that. Anything else cannot pop into being from nothing.

The fact that by your own logic God cannot have popped into being from nothing either, is ignored when it fits your arguments.
Now who is being illogical here?

You are.

We both know that time is variable in this universe. Einstein knew that.

Why is it so hard to postulate a being that lives OUTSIDE the universe, and never "popped" into being or"came from", or any term that implies the passage of time???

It is logical that nothing will come from nothing, no matter how long we wait. Therefore some other mechanism must be at work. Something OUTSIDE our understanding.

RWGR
05-16-2016, 08:10 PM
Hans, within our current understanding it would seem self-refuting to say God came from nothing. But that's the entire point: within our [limited] understanding.

I actually take it as a badge of honor when someone says belief in God is illogical. Hell yes it is! And what a blessing that it is so.

A God that is confined within our limited human minds and imaginations is a God I'd have no interest in at all.

Hans
05-16-2016, 08:10 PM
Why is it so hard to postulate that prior to our current universe time did not exist, so therefore out current universe "popped" into being?
It is a lot simpler and a lot more logical than some "being" living outside the universe and "creating" the universe.

Sometimes the simplest ideas are the best.

RWGR
05-16-2016, 08:16 PM
Why is it so hard to postulate that prior to our current universe time did not exist, so therefore out current universe "popped" into being?
It is a lot simpler and a lot more logical than some "being" living outside the universe and "creating" the universe.

Sometimes the simplest ideas are the best.

Sometimes, yes.

Barry Morris
05-16-2016, 08:39 PM
Why is it so hard to postulate that prior to our current universe time did not exist, so therefore out current universe "popped" into being?
It is a lot simpler and a lot more logical than some "being" living outside the universe and "creating" the universe.

Sometimes the simplest ideas are the best.

The universe, that extends as far as we can see, with all it's complexity and consistent laws, just popped out of nothing, and that is simpler???

Sorry, I don't see that as logical, since we all recognize that anything complex we create has a creator. And how many times do UFO enthusiasts try to point out something they think has been created, thus "proving" UFO's exist.

Hans, you don't want a God in your life, we get that, but your logic isn't.