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RWGR
05-11-2016, 07:32 PM
Martin Luther on the Dignity and Majesty of God

“I look upon God no better than a scoundrel” (ref. Weimar, Vol. 1, Pg. 487. Cf. Table Talk, No. 963).

“Christ committed adultery first of all with the women at the well about whom St. John tell’s us. Was not everybody about Him saying: ‘Whatever has He been doing with her?’ Secondly, with Mary Magdalen, and thirdly with the women taken in adultery whom He dismissed so lightly. Thus even, Christ who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died.” (ref. Trishreden, Weimer Edition, Vol. 2, Pg. 107. – What a great blasphemy from a man who is regarded as “great reformer”!).

“I have greater confidence in my wife and my pupils than I have in Christ” (ref. Table Talk, 2397b).

“It does not matter how Christ behaved – what He taught is all that matters” (ref. Erlangen Vol. 29, Pg. 126).



Martin Luther on the 10 Commandments

“[The commandments] only purpose is to show man his impotence to do good and to teach him to despair of himself” (ref: Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), Volume III, p. 364).

“We must remove the Decalogue out of sight and heart” (ref. De Wette 4, 188)

“If we allow them – the Commandments – any influence in our conscience, they become the cloak of all evil, heresies and blasphemies” (ref. Comm. ad Galat, p.310).

“It is more important to guard against good works than against sin.” (ref. Trischreden, Wittenberg Edition, Vol. VI., p. 160).

RWGR
05-11-2016, 07:34 PM
Martin Luther on Christian Living

“Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides… No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.” (ref. ‘Let Your Sins Be Strong, from ‘The Wittenberg Project;’ ‘The Wartburg Segment’, translated by Erika Flores, from Dr. Martin Luther’s Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99, 1 Aug. 1521. – Cf. Also Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. II, pg. 404))


“Do not ask anything of your conscience; and if it speaks, do not listen to it; if it insists, stifle it, amuse yourself; if necessary, commit some good big sin, in order to drive it away. Conscience is the voice of Satan, and it is necessary always to do just the contrary of what Satan wishes.” (ref. J. Dollinger, La Reforme et les resultants qu’elle a produits. (Trans. E. Perrot, Paris, Gaume, 1848-49), Vol III, pg. 248)



Martin Luther on Social Justice

“Peasants are no better than straw. They will not hear the word and they are without sense; therefore they must be compelled to hear the crack of the whip and the whiz of bullets and it is only what they deserve.” (ref. Erlangen Vol 24, Pg. 294).

“To kill a peasant is not murder; it is helping to extinguish the conflagration. Let there be no half measures! Crush them! Cut their throats! Transfix them. Leave no stone unturned! To kill a peasant is to destroy a mad dog!” – “If they say that I am very hard and merciless, mercy be damned. Let whoever can stab, strangle, and kill them like mad dogs” (ref. Erlangen Vol 24, Pg. 294).

“Like the drivers of donkeys, who have to belabor the donkeys incessantly with rods and whips, or they will not obey, so must the ruler do with the people; they must drive, beat throttle, hang, burn, behead and torture, so as to make themselves feared and to keep the people in check.” (ref. Erlangen Vol 15, Pg. 276).


Martin Luther on the Love of Jews

“My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire… Second, that all their books– their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible– be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted…Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country…Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it… He who hears this name [God] from a Jew must inform the authorities, or else throw sow dung at him when he sees him and chase him away”. (ref. Martin Luther; On the Jews and Their Lies, translated by Martin H. Bertram, Fortress Press, 1955).


“Burn their synagogues. Forbid them all that I have mentioned above. Force them to work and treat them with every kind of severity, as Moses did in the desert and slew three thousand… If that is no use, we must drive them away like mad dogs, in order that we may not be partakers of their abominable blasphemy and of all their vices, and in order that we may not deserve the anger of God and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Let everyone see how he does his. I am excused.” (ref. About the Jews and Their Lies,’ quoted by O’Hare, in ‘The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, p. 290).


“If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words I baptize thee in the name of Abraham” (ref. Grisar, “Luther”, Vol. V. pg. 413).


“The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary thieves.” (ref. Weimar, Vol. 53, Pg. 502).

RWGR
05-11-2016, 07:35 PM
Martin Luther on the Sanctity and Dignity of Marriage

“If the husband is unwilling, there is another who is; if the wife is unwilling, then let the maid come.” (ref. Of Married Life).

“Suppose I should counsel the wife of an impotent man, with his consent, to giver herself to another, say her husband’s brother, but to keep this marriage secret and to ascribe the children to the so-called putative father. The question is: Is such a women in a saved state? I answer, certainly.” (ref. On Marriage).

“It is not in opposition to the Holy Scriptures for a man to have several wives.” (ref. De Wette, Vol. 2, p. 459).

“The word and work of God is quite clear, viz., that women are made to be either wives or prostitutes.” (ref. On Married Life).

Barry Morris
05-11-2016, 08:15 PM
Near as I can tell, there's only one guy in Christendom that claims to be infallible (sometimes) and Luther ain't him!!!

Nothing like quoting a guy from 500 years ago to make an argument. Not much point.

Nobody on earth is always right.

RWGR
05-12-2016, 09:44 AM
Nothing like quoting a guy from 500 years ago to make an argument. Not much point.

.

you're right, BM, I should have used a quote from Luther that he said within the last two years or so

:) :) :)

Barry Morris
05-12-2016, 10:24 AM
you're right, BM, I should have used a quote from Luther that he said within the last two years or so



Good argument, good content!!! :) :) :)

RWGR
05-12-2016, 12:13 PM
Luther, on his deathbed, figured it out. Too bad he has led so many astray, though.

http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-it-is-easier-to-live-as-a-protestant-but-better-to-die-as-a-catholic-martin-luther-87-83-85.jpg

Barry Morris
05-12-2016, 05:14 PM
He was right, and I am, just not a Roman Catholic.

You can deny it all day, but even the Roman Catholics admit there are Christians who are not Roman Catholics (separated bretheren), who therefore MUST be catholics.

RWGR
05-12-2016, 05:23 PM
Barry, stop. You know darn well he was talking about the faith he left: the Roman Catholic faith.

Barry Morris
05-12-2016, 05:45 PM
Barry, stop. You know darn well he was talking about the faith he left: the Roman Catholic faith.

Oh, did he repent?? I missed that.

No, I don't. A Catholic is a born again real believer in Jesus. A Roman Catholic MIGHT be.

What Luther actually meant, you have no idea, except to swallow what your denomination demands you believe.

RWGR
05-12-2016, 05:49 PM
BM, explain to me how his words make sense if he just meant the universal church (small "C" catholic)

If he did, then what he's saying is Protestants are not part of the universal body of Christ (catholic).

His words only make sense in the way he presented them: as a juxtaposition between the awful movement he started, and the Church he left.

But, hey, if you want to believe he is saying Prots aren't part of the universal body of Christ, have at 'er!!!

RWGR
05-12-2016, 05:58 PM
http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-it-is-easier-to-live-as-a-protestant-but-better-to-die-as-a-catholic-martin-luther-87-83-85.jpg

BM's translation:

"It is easier to live as a Protestant, but better to die as a member of Christ's universal church"


So, how many Protestants agree with BM??

Barney Rubble
05-12-2016, 10:06 PM
I agree to live as a Christian & die as a Christian......not to be labeeled protestant nor catholic.

Question?

If a non believer came to this forum looking for answers that lie in their heart about Christiandom & they noticed the constant bickering over rc/prot....then to say to themselves, "If this is Christianity, I want no part of it"...do you think you are accountable for their leading astray?

1 Corinthians 8:9

Barry Morris
05-12-2016, 11:13 PM
http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-it-is-easier-to-live-as-a-protestant-but-better-to-die-as-a-catholic-martin-luther-87-83-85.jpg

BM's translation:

"It is easier to live as a Protestant, but better to die as a member of Christ's universal church"


So, how many Protestants agree with BM??

Mormons, JW's, and a whole bunch of other cults might, the ones you keep putting in the same box.

If Luther was speaking of the Roman Catholic church, it makes me wonder why he didn't repent.

Barry Morris
05-12-2016, 11:22 PM
I agree to live as a Christian & die as a Christian......not to be labeeled protestant nor catholic.

Question?

If a non believer came to this forum looking for answers that lie in their heart about Christiandom & they noticed the constant bickering over rc/prot....then to say to themselves, "If this is Christianity, I want no part of it"...do you think you are accountable for their leading astray?

1 Corinthians 8:9

I don't need to win. Does that tell you anything??

RWGR
05-15-2016, 09:38 AM
I don't need to win. Does that tell you anything??



Ummmm, you've accepted your lot in life as a loser?

RWGR
05-15-2016, 09:42 AM
Mormons, JW's, and a whole bunch of other cults might, the ones you keep putting in the same box.

If Luther was speaking of the Roman Catholic church, it makes me wonder why he didn't repent.

Luther was a very proud man, a huge ego. Also, it's not a stretch to say Luther was an instrument of Satan. He created discord in Christianity that led to mass confusion, and decades of Christian killing Christian.

There is one story that Luther had a Catholic priest administer Last Rites to him on his deathbed. Now, as to the veracity of the story, I don't know.

Barry Morris
05-15-2016, 01:33 PM
....There is one story that Luther had a Catholic priest administer Last Rites to him on his deathbed. Now, as to the veracity of the story, I don't know.

Indeed. You would usually characterize that as a lie.

RWGR
05-15-2016, 05:41 PM
You hope it's a lie.

Barry Morris
05-15-2016, 11:18 PM
You hope it's a lie.

Nope, because I know that God is concerned about a man's heart, and not his denomination.

What a lame god you believe in, who sends his son to die for your sins but you STILL don't know if you're a true child of God.

RWGR
05-16-2016, 10:22 AM
I know Jesus died for my sins. I also know that salvation is not guaranteed, I can lose it, not from any failing of God's, but from my own.

What a weak god you have. He is nothing more than an equal signatory in a contract with mankind: "I am really, really mad at this person, wish he wouldn't have turned into a killer and abused children, but, hey, I promised his salvation, can't take it away now"

What a joke theology.

Barry Morris
05-16-2016, 12:53 PM
I know Jesus died for my sins. I also know that salvation is not guaranteed, I can lose it, not from any failing of God's, but from my own.

So tell us, with scripture examples, how one can be "unborn" again.


What a weak god you have. He is nothing more than an equal signatory in a contract with mankind: "I am really, really mad at this person, wish he wouldn't have turned into a killer and abused children, but, hey, I promised his salvation, can't take it away now"

What a joke theology.

Really?? We have Moses, David and Paul, all murderers, and yet God's children. I think the RCC tries to ignore the idea of "born again", "legitimate" chuildren of God, because it's so much easier to control people if you keep them in fear.

THAT is a joke theology, Satanic, I might even add.

RWGR
05-16-2016, 12:57 PM
So tell us, with scripture examples, how one can be "unborn" again.

Show me in Scripture where you cannot lose your salvation. If you couldn't, why would you have to work it out with fear and trembling?

Really?? We have Moses, David and Paul, all murderers, and yet God's children.

And they all accepted God in the end.

We have Stalin, Hitler, etc...are they all saved? After all, they are all God's children, too.

I think the RCC tries to ignore the idea of "born again", "legitimate" chuildren of God, because it's so much easier to control people if you keep them in fear.

Your anger and overt emotionalism are blocking you form discussing in a mature manner.

THAT is a joke theology, Satanic, I might even add

If it were true, yes. Alas, it is not.

Sorry that my comments about Luther have struck a nerve.

Barney Rubble
05-16-2016, 01:25 PM
Heb.4: 4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age — and then have fallen away—to be restored again to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.…


If it wasn't possible for some one to lose their faith, this passage would not be written.
Obviously, ppl can turn away from the faith or Paul would not have written this.

Also:

Matthew 13

But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended

RWGR
05-16-2016, 01:53 PM
Barney, last week you said the OT didn't mean all that much to you. Only in certain places?

Still, I don't see any proof whatsoever that we cannot lose salvation.

Matthew 10:22: "...he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

What is to be endured, if one cannot lose salvation? Endure what?

John 15:6: "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up , thrown into the fire and burned."

"Remain" in Jesus?

Hmmm, seems to me that means simply believing is not enough; we need to "endure" and "remain"


1 Corinthians 15-2: "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."

"If" you hold firmly? That means some will not hold firmly.

"Believed in vain"? How can belief in Jesus be in vain, unless one claims they believe yet lose their salvation because of their actions, etc.

And Barney, your Hebrews quote certainly shows one can lose salvation: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of God afresh and put him to an open shame."

RWGR
05-16-2016, 02:02 PM
Hebrews 10:26-28 - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

"After we received the knowledge of truth" is the same as "after we accepted Jesus".

Again, it is quite clear that one can lose salvation.

Matthew 7:21-23 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Not everyone that acknowledges Jesus as lord will gain salvation. How can that be?

it must be because some of their actions forfeited the gift offered.

Barry Morris
05-16-2016, 03:46 PM
So tell us, with scripture examples, how one can be "unborn" again.

Show me in Scripture where you cannot lose your salvation. If you couldn't, why would you have to work it out with fear and trembling?

It is obvious from the very term "Born again". Like any relationship so described. A child parent relationship CANNOT be changed, even by God. So you would have legitimate children of God in hell with ba$tards, as the unsaved are called in Scripture. Sorry, that makes no sense. Fear and trembling?? This is addressed to those who are already God's children. They are not be saved by working out, they are doing the will of God.

Really?? We have Moses, David and Paul, all murderers, and yet God's children.

And they all accepted God in the end.

Nope, not quite. David was quite clearly God's child, annointed to be king.

We have Stalin, Hitler, etc...are they all saved? After all, they are all God's children, too.
Illegitimate children, not children of God, not born again

I think the RCC tries to ignore the idea of "born again", "legitimate" children of God, because it's so much easier to control people if you keep them in fear.

Your anger and overt emotionalism are blocking you form discussing in a mature manner.

Like the RCC, you too ignore the ramifications of the concept of "born again."

RWGR
05-16-2016, 03:47 PM
...and still waiting ...

Barry Morris
05-16-2016, 03:48 PM
Most if not all the Scripture RW posts was directed at believers. The meanings are quite different to those already IN God's family.

Which is why the RCC avoids discussion of the relationship Christians have with God.

RWGR
05-16-2016, 03:50 PM
Most if not all the Scripture RW posts was directed at believers. The meanings are quite different to those already IN God's family.

Please, expound on that further.

Which is why the RCC avoids discussion of the relationship Christians have with God.

The RCC gave you The Bible. No source has discussed the relationship between God and his people more, or more in depth.

Sorry if that offends.

RWGR
05-16-2016, 03:52 PM
Want to know what the RCC says about mans' relationship with God? simply access here: http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

Want to know what Protestantism says about it? Ask the minister down the road. But, he may contradict the minister two roads over, who recently left a church he was with because he disagreed with their interpretations ...

A mess. A sad, avoidable mess.

Barney Rubble
05-16-2016, 04:11 PM
Barney, last week you said the OT didn't mean all that much to you. Only in certain places?

Still, I don't see any proof whatsoever that we cannot lose salvation.

Matthew 10:22: "...he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

What is to be endured, if one cannot lose salvation? Endure what?

John 15:6: "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up , thrown into the fire and burned."

"Remain" in Jesus?

Hmmm, seems to me that means simply believing is not enough; we need to "endure" and "remain"


1 Corinthians 15-2: "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."

"If" you hold firmly? That means some will not hold firmly.

"Believed in vain"? How can belief in Jesus be in vain, unless one claims they believe yet lose their salvation because of their actions, etc.

And Barney, your Hebrews quote certainly shows one can lose salvation: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of God afresh and put him to an open shame."

I was not disagreeing with you!
I believe you can lose salvation OR never had it really to begin with
Just because I am not Catholic doesn't mean I am against every teaching

Barney Rubble
05-16-2016, 04:17 PM
Barney, last week you said the OT didn't mean all that much to you.

The OT is very important to me.
It relays the laws that we were to live by until CHRIST came & made the ultimate sacrifrice
" Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith"
Since CHRIST came, I dwell more there in my reading & the OT is my schoolmaster bringing me to HIM.

RWGR
05-16-2016, 05:16 PM
I remember the first time I read, or heard, somewhere (can't remember which it was now) that the entire OT is simply the preconfiguring of Christ. Before that, it seemed a confusing set of tracts with lots of rules.

Now, to read it in that light gives it a whole new meaning.

Barry Morris
05-16-2016, 07:56 PM
I remember the first time I read, or heard, somewhere (can't remember which it was now) that the entire OT is simply the preconfiguring of Christ. Before that, it seemed a confusing set of tracts with lots of rules.

Now, to read it in that light gives it a whole new meaning.

Agreement.

Barry Morris
05-16-2016, 07:59 PM
I was not disagreeing with you!
I believe you can lose salvation OR never had it really to begin with
Just because I am not Catholic doesn't mean I am against every teaching

Perhaps you would address the idea that one can become "unborn" again.

To clarify my position, the bible often uses earthly relationships to describe our relationship with God.

I have a son. NOT EVEN GOD can change that!!!!

So I believe that "born again" describes a permanent relationship, once entered in to.

Interested.

Barry Morris
05-16-2016, 08:02 PM
Want to know what the RCC says about mans' relationship with God? simply access here: http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

Want to know what Protestantism says about it? Ask the minister down the road. But, he may contradict the minister two roads over, who recently left a church he was with because he disagreed with their interpretations ...

A mess. A sad, avoidable mess.

You want me to read the entire catechism of the RCC to try to find information on one point.

Tell me, where can I find a concordance on it?? Or a dictionary.

I also know that, because they are only under the authority of Christ, you believe Protestants have 40,000 different sets of beliefs. Putting all Christian non-Roman Catholics into a box like that is good for your agenda, but not truth.

RWGR
05-16-2016, 08:05 PM
You want me to read the entire catechism of the RCC to try to find information on one point.

Tell me, where can I find a concordance on it?? Or a dictionary.

There is a searchable data base on that site. There are other sites like it.

For once, just once, why not go to the RCC and see what they believe, instead of insinuating what you think it might believe?

Granted, you might have a lot less material to bash, but that isn't a bad thing, if you really care to know what it thinks.

RWGR
05-16-2016, 08:06 PM
So I believe that "born again" describes a permanent relationship, once entered in to.

Interested.

No one is questioning that you believe that. That is quite clear.

The problem is this: your belief is easily refutable with biblical passages.

Barry Morris
05-16-2016, 08:10 PM
No one is questioning that you believe that. That is quite clear.

The problem is this: your belief is easily refutable with biblical passages.

Only if you ignore context. Like passages aimed at Christians, that you must twist to make them seem to be aimed at non-believers.

RWGR
05-16-2016, 08:12 PM
I'm not ignoring context. And how does one know when a certain biblical text is aimed at believers and when it is aimed at non-believers? Let me guess ...personal interpretation.

Yeah, we've seen how well that's worked for a percentage of Christianity the last five hundred years ;)

And, I provided multiple passages. You've not addressed one, not a single one. You avoid doing so by saying I've got the context all wrong. That, of course, is a coward's way out.

And in that, I'm not too surprised.

So, according to BM, every passage in the Bible must be understood within two contexts: it's either addressing a believer, or a non-believer. So I ask: where in the Bible does it say that?

God cannot talk to all humanity as one? He must talk to us as believers and non-believers in every situation?

Barry Morris
05-16-2016, 08:42 PM
I'm not ignoring context. And how does one know when a certain biblical text is aimed at believers and when it is aimed at non-believers? Let me guess ...personal interpretation.

Yeah, we've seen how well that's worked for a percentage of Christianity the last five hundred years ;)

And, I provided multiple passages. You've not addressed one, not a single one. You avoid doing so by saying I've got the context all wrong. That, of course, is a coward's way out.

And in that, I'm not too surprised.

So, according to BM, every passage in the Bible must be understood within two contexts: it's either addressing a believer, or a non-believer. So I ask: where in the Bible does it say that?

God cannot talk to all humanity as one? He must talk to us as believers and non-believers in every situation?

I'll have a look at the passages. It's usually quite clear who the author is talking to. And you may remember that many of the books were epistles, that is, letters addressed either to believers or churches.

But we'll see.

Barry Morris
05-16-2016, 08:46 PM
One more just now.

You said: "And Barney, your Hebrews quote certainly shows one can lose salvation: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of God afresh and put him to an open shame."

This is very, very obviously a rhetorical statement, since there is no way Christ will be crucified again, it is therefore impossible for them to fall away.

Barry Morris
05-16-2016, 08:50 PM
".. instead of insinuating what you think it might believe?

Granted, you might have a lot less material to bash, but that isn't a bad thing, if you really care to know what it thinks."

Oh.

Really.

Barney Rubble
05-16-2016, 10:47 PM
One more just now.

You said: "And Barney, your Hebrews quote certainly shows one can lose salvation: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of God afresh and put him to an open shame."

This is very, very obviously a rhetorical statement, since there is no way Christ will be crucified again, it is therefore impossible for them to fall away.

If it is impossible for "them" to fall away then why even write the passage?

Barry Morris
05-17-2016, 12:49 AM
If it is impossible for "them" to fall away then why even write the passage?

The question in my mind is, is the translation used accurately portraying the words of the writer?? Or is there another way to look at it, as I pointed out.

If, as you say, it DOES teach that one could fall away, then a contradiction is set up. The "born again" can be "unborn".

I don't believe that Scripture contradicts itself, so I reject your interpretation.

You'll notice that RW doesn't want to discuss "born again". Do you??

Bluesky
05-17-2016, 09:07 AM
Here is why that Hebrews verse is hypothetical.


For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Barney and Barry,

Breaking it down to subject, verb and object,

The person who has fallen away cannot be restored to repentance again. In other words, once you have fallen away, you are toast. There is no turning back. Which means you can only backslide once. That is why this verse becomes a real problem if you use it to prove that a person can indeed fall away.

So why, hypothetically speaking, does this falling away make it impossible to be restored?

For that, you have to understand the context of the book of Hebrews and it's purpose. The entire book of Hebrews is written to show the converted Jewish believer in Christ that Jesus Christ is indeed their only remedy for salvation. He is our High Priest, He is the ultimate sacrifice. The sacrificial blood of animals will no longer do. And if people "fall away" from THIS belief, they have trampled the blood of Christ underfoot, and for them, their remains no other remedy.

Indeed, there were many Jewish adherents to Christianity who became impatient, thinking that Christ would have returned already, and they were abandoning the Christian faith and turning back to Judaism. For them, if Christ did not meet their need for salvation, there is no other remedy - there is no repentance.

So the hypothetical has to do with people who adhered to a religion, were disappointed, and turned back to the Jewish sacrificial system. That's why the Hebrew author was adamant about saying."The blood of bulls and goats can never take away sin"

Barney, it has been neat watching you grow in your faith ever since you joined Soonet! Which was quite a while ago.

Barry Morris
05-17-2016, 09:34 AM
I have seen that analysis before, maybe from you!!

Thank you.

RWGR
05-17-2016, 10:37 AM
I'll have a look at the passages. It's usually quite clear who the author is talking to. And you may remember that many of the books were epistles, that is, letters addressed either to believers or churches.



I agree, they were specific letters and addresses.

But then again, in believing the Bible is indeed God talking to us, then we also have to believe they are not specific, in that they are meant for all men in all times.

Barry Morris
05-17-2016, 01:50 PM
I agree, they were specific letters and addresses.

But then again, in believing the Bible is indeed God talking to us, then we also have to believe they are not specific, in that they are meant for all men in all times.

1 Cor. 1 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with eloquent words of wisdom, lest the cross of the Christ be emptied of its power. 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

Indeed it is meant for all men. But only the saved know "it is the power of God".

How could they know unless they have eternal salvation?? Would those once saved and knowing go back to seeing the bible as foolishness?? I don't think so, not really. God knows the heart, and as the bible says, those in His hand, He will never let go..

Barney Rubble
05-17-2016, 02:05 PM
Here is why that Hebrews verse is hypothetical.



Barney and Barry,

Breaking it down to subject, verb and object,

The person who has fallen away cannot be restored to repentance again. In other words, once you have fallen away, you are toast. There is no turning back. Which means you can only backslide once. That is why this verse becomes a real problem if you use it to prove that a person can indeed fall away.

So why, hypothetically speaking, does this falling away make it impossible to be restored?

For that, you have to understand the context of the book of Hebrews and it's purpose. The entire book of Hebrews is written to show the converted Jewish believer in Christ that Jesus Christ is indeed their only remedy for salvation. He is our High Priest, He is the ultimate sacrifice. The sacrificial blood of animals will no longer do. And if people "fall away" from THIS belief, they have trampled the blood of Christ underfoot, and for them, their remains no other remedy.

Indeed, there were many Jewish adherents to Christianity who became impatient, thinking that Christ would have returned already, and they were abandoning the Christian faith and turning back to Judaism. For them, if Christ did not meet their need for salvation, there is no other remedy - there is no repentance.

So the hypothetical has to do with people who adhered to a religion, were disappointed, and turned back to the Jewish sacrificial system. That's why the Hebrew author was adamant about saying."The blood of bulls and goats can never take away sin"

Barney, it has been neat watching you grow in your faith ever since you joined Soonet! Which was quite a while ago.

I agree with your passage here
there are some churches out there that believe in "saved & lost"....constantly putting CHRIST back on the cross , not having enough faith believing that you are saved the 1st time
I do not believe in the saved & lost doctrine but do believe, via scripture, that many can be "enlightened" only to stumble & fall away when times get tough
For this reason, I think the rapture doctrine is dangerous.
Many enlightened ppl believing that they will not see tribulation might fall away when they find that they are in that great tribulation
JESUS did not promise a good life. He warns that you may have to endure through tribulations & troubles.
He does, however, tell us that we will have a good afterlife if we endure to the end.

Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
to name a few

RWGR
05-17-2016, 02:07 PM
How could they know unless they have eternal salvation?? Would those once saved and knowing go back to seeing the bible as foolishness?? I don't think so, not really. God knows the heart, and as the bible says, those in His hand, He will never let go..

You're right, God will never let go.

But man lets go at times.

Barry Morris
05-17-2016, 02:18 PM
...But man lets go at times.

And becomes unborn again??

Becomes unfilled with the Holy Spirit??

Like the Prodigal Son, he can walk away, but still remains a son. I think "saved as by fire" applies here, and remember what the father said to the elder son, who complained about the prodigal being welcomed back, "Son, all that I have is yours!" The Prodigal lost much, but was always a son, always a child of the father. Always saved.

RWGR
05-17-2016, 02:41 PM
My god, what a dangerous theology. How many souls will not be saved, because they believe they can't lose salvation?

People should fear people like you.

Bluesky
05-17-2016, 03:16 PM
For this reason, I think the rapture doctrine is dangerous.

The only reason you should reject a doctrine is because it is not in Scripture. Not because how your interpretation makes you feel.

Is the rapture taught in Scripture? I have shown you a couple of times that it is. You have not grappled with the text.

You have to either say that Paul wrote that we shall meet the Lord in the air as a metaphor and give us the right interpretation, or you have to take it at face value.

Barney Rubble
05-17-2016, 03:29 PM
i will gather scripture & get back to you
i do not believe it because i want to disbelieve but what what scripture backs up
this is the same of all scripture with myself
I admit if i am wrong but only proven scripturally

i also do not believe in the eternal seperation from GOD doctrine as taught in the Baptist church I frequent but rather the fire & brimstone as written in the scriture
i hate when ppl say "holy ghost"...it is HOLY SPRIT...GOD is a Spirit & to be worshipped as Spirit ...not a ghost
i also hate when ppl say it a free gift...it isn't a gift...salvation was paid for...a debt was paid....You have been "PAID" at a high price. Therefore glorify GOD in body & Spirit (again, not ghost)
1 Cor: 6:20
i also don't like "born again" when the greek is really "born from above"

Barry Morris
05-17-2016, 06:15 PM
My god, what a dangerous theology. How many souls will not be saved, because they believe they can't lose salvation?

People should fear people like you.

You say that over and over, but don't want to address the specifics.

RWGR
05-17-2016, 06:19 PM
i also do not believe in the eternal seperation from GOD doctrine as taught in the Baptist church I frequent but rather the fire & brimstone as written in the scriture

It's not just a Baptists thing. Many churches teach that, even the RCC.

That's what Hell is: eternal separation from God.

The soul was made for communion with God. When the soul is robbed of that, it enters the worst state imaginable: Hell.

God isn't going to give people in Hell a second chance at some point. Once there, you're there. You are separated from God for eternity.

i hate when ppl say "holy ghost"...it is HOLY SPRIT...GOD is a Spirit & to be worshipped as Spirit ...not a ghost


I wouldn't get too worked up about that. You're probably thinking "ghost" as our present minds imagine one: some ethereal entity who comes back from the grave. But the etymology of the word "ghost" is taken from the German word for spirit and the Latin word for "supernatural being".

The word fits.

i also hate when ppl say it a free gift...it isn't a gift...salvation was paid for...a debt was paid....You have been "PAID" at a high price

We have paid nothing. Jesus paid the ultimate price. The cost to us: nothing. It is a gift offered free, out of pure love.

i also don't like "born again" when the greek is really "born from above"

I agree here. Few Christian doctrines have been more abused than this one.

RWGR
05-17-2016, 06:20 PM
You say that over and over, but don't want to address the specifics.

I've addressed them many times. I am simply tired of you.

Now if you don't mind, step aside, I'm conversing with adults.

RWGR
05-17-2016, 06:21 PM
The only reason you should reject a doctrine is because it is not in Scripture. Not because how your interpretation makes you feel.



Can you show me where Sola Scriptura is in Scripture?

Barry Morris
05-17-2016, 06:23 PM
i will gather scripture & get back to you
i do not believe it because i want to disbelieve but what what scripture backs up
this is the same of all scripture with myself
I admit if i am wrong but only proven scripturally

I'm interested. Waiting.


i also do not believe in the eternal seperation from GOD doctrine as taught in the Baptist church I frequent but rather the fire & brimstone as written in the scripture

No separation?? God can't look at sin, so are they separated or not?? Hell is also described as a bottomless pit. Where is the fire??

i hate when ppl say "holy ghost"...it is HOLY SPRIT...GOD is a Spirit & to be worshipped as Spirit ...not a ghost

Language Change from KJV to present.


i also hate when ppl say it a free gift...it isn't a gift...salvation was paid for...a debt was paid....You have been "PAID" at a high price. Therefore glorify GOD in body & Spirit (again, not ghost)
1 Cor: 6:20 Do you charge your kids for the gifts you buy them?? From their point of view, it's a free gift.


i also don't like "born again" when the greek is really "born from above"

You would have to explain the difference, especially since it means AGAIN.

Barry Morris
05-17-2016, 06:24 PM
I've addressed them many times. I am simply tired of you.

Now if you don't mind, step aside, I'm conversing with adults.

No, you haven't. You gloss over the hard stuff that the RCC hasn't fed you.

Not likely you're conversing with adults beacuse adults address the points......

Barry Morris
05-17-2016, 06:24 PM
Can you show me where Sola Scriptura is in Scripture?


....and don't try to derail the discussion.

RWGR
05-17-2016, 06:30 PM
....and don't try to derail the discussion.

I know you can't, I'm asking Blue

RWGR
05-17-2016, 06:31 PM
No, you haven't. You gloss over the hard stuff that the RCC hasn't fed you.

Not likely you're conversing with adults beacuse adults address the points......

Please, move on, child

RWGR
05-17-2016, 06:33 PM
God can't look at sin,

Yet you believe He'd have no problem being born in a womb of a sinful person.




'round, 'round we go ...

Bluesky
05-17-2016, 06:52 PM
BArney, slow down. Relax. Let me show you something.
You said

i also hate when ppl say it a free gift...it isn't a gift...salvation was paid for...a debt was paid....You have been "PAID" at a high price.

You also said you allow yourslf to be corrected by Scripture, correct?

So in Ephesians, I am told

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

So you see? It is a gift after all. Yes, it cost the Lord a great deal of pain, his lifesblood. But then he gives it to us as a free gift. We simply have to accept it, by believing in Him.

Will you stand corrected?

Bluesky
05-17-2016, 06:53 PM
Please, move on, child

This from one who more often than not mocks, belittles and calls people names on these forums.
Like I said, I will interact with you when YOU grow up.

RWGR
05-17-2016, 07:03 PM
This from one who more often than not mocks, belittles and calls people names on these forums.
Like I said, I will interact with you when YOU grow up.

Please. You avoid me because I trap you theologically.

Make all the excuses you want, but you're the poster child for Pretzelstanism

Barry Morris
05-17-2016, 07:15 PM
Please. You avoid me because I trap you theologically.

Make all the excuses you want, but you're the poster child for Pretzelstanism

Well, it's obvious who the child is. He came back at post 54, when he realized he was looking at too many contradictions set up by his church!!

Go worship your denomination, and we will worship God.

RWGR
05-17-2016, 07:16 PM
Well, it's obvious who the child is.

Go worship your denomination, and we will worship God.

Awww, how cute, he thinks Blue is his buddy again.

He is, until you piss him off...which should be in the next post or two :) :) :)

RWGR
05-17-2016, 07:19 PM
The 'friendship' of Blue and BM is always such a tenuous thing, to say the least ...


The deterioration of this thread is a prime example of the reason this forum is on life support.

Yup. Splitting the north-east and north-west side of a hair.

Yeah, and I feel so guilty about it!!! :) :) :)

Barry Morris
05-17-2016, 07:20 PM
More proof!!! :) :) :)

RWGR
05-17-2016, 07:21 PM
Translation: "Man, I'm my own worst enemy!!"

Barney Rubble
05-17-2016, 07:22 PM
BArney, slow down. Relax. Let me show you something.
You said


You also said you allow yourslf to be corrected by Scripture, correct?

So in Ephesians, I am told


So you see? It is a gift after all. Yes, it cost the Lord a great deal of pain, his lifesblood. But then he gives it to us as a free gift. We simply have to accept it, by believing in Him.

Will you stand corrected?

In reality, it is just simmantics. Yes, it is a gift to us but a debt was paid by CHRIST. There was no free be. A debt had to be paid.
CHRIST had to pay a great offering or debt payment for all and that, to me, sounds more dramatic, loving & meanful.
Sure, it all means the same but i personally just dont like the "free gift" thought.

Col.2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us (debt)
, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
1 Cor.6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's (not free gift but rather paid for).
1 Cor. 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

You say "Free Gift". I say "debt paid". Same thing...of course, if I choose to accept it & have faith in it

Hans
05-17-2016, 07:22 PM
Wait, you do not need proof, remember?

RWGR
05-17-2016, 07:24 PM
Wait, you do not need proof, remember?

Hans, it's not fair to the other two Protestants here to lay the baggage of BM's warped theology at their feet.

Bluesky
05-17-2016, 07:24 PM
In reality, it is just simmantics. Yes, it is a gift to us but a debt was paid by CHRIST. There was no free be. A debt had to be paid.
CHRIST had to pay a great offering or debt payment for all and that, to me, sounds more dramatic, loving & meanful.
Sure, it all means the same but i personally just dont like the "free gift" thought.

Col.2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us (debt)
, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
1 Cor.6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's (not free gift but rather paid for).
1 Cor. 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

I hear you. Free often implies that it costs nothing. But it cost our Saviour everything. But it is offered to us as a gift, and that is what makes it gracious.

Amazing grace..
How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me...

RWGR
05-17-2016, 07:25 PM
I hear you. Free often implies that it costs nothing. But it cost our Saviour everything. But it is offered to us as a gift, and that is what makes it gracious.

Amazing grace..



Deep.

You should write a song about it

Hans
05-17-2016, 07:44 PM
Hans, it's not fair to the other two Protestants here to lay the baggage of BM's warped theology at their feet.

Fair enough. You seem to be well versed on these matters.

Barry Morris
05-17-2016, 08:55 PM
Fair enough. You seem to be well versed on these matters.

To someone like you, that is true.

To anyone who actually READS and studies the bible, it's obvious his only resource is what his denomination puts on the web.

RWGR
05-18-2016, 09:14 AM
To someone like you, that is true.

To anyone who actually READS and studies the bible, it's obvious his only resource is what his denomination puts on the web.

Don't read much into what Barry posts. First of all, he's livid that I know the Bible better than him. Second, the fact the RCC gave us the Bible sends him into fits of frenzy that at times border on insanity.

Barry Morris
05-18-2016, 10:32 PM
Well, lets go back and figure out where the bible talks about being "unborn" and "unfilled".

You MUST know.

:) :) :)

RWGR
05-19-2016, 10:25 AM
To prove my point, see above! :) :) :)