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Barney Rubble
05-17-2016, 06:21 PM
From what I read, I do not believe in the rapture doctrine.
I believe it is a dangerous doctrine as those who will be taught that they will be taken away prior to tribulation might fall away when they find they are in it.
I am sorry that it is a lengthy read but it is a lengthy subject.

2 Thessalonians 2:
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

This clearly states that "by our gathering together unto him & the day of The Lord does not come until the man of perdition is revealed.

We also know that the man of perdition (antichrist) will be known when he sets up the abomination that makes desolate. That will be 3 1/2 years into the tribulation.

In Revelation 13:5, the Apostle John describes the Antichrist and the time given him to rule, which is 42 months. This agrees with Daniel 9:27, which says the Antichrist will break his treaty with Israel in the middle of the seven year tribulation period, and it also matches up with Daniel 12:11 that there will 1,290 days (approximately 3.5 years) before the abomination of desolation occurs.

Matt.24: 29-31 Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

1 Th.4: 16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Th.4:15 states, For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them who are asleep.
We who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord means just that. There has to be some Christians alive "unto the coming of The Lord".

Therefore, there will be some Christians alive 3 1/2 years minimum into the tribulation because we do not "phthano" precede those whom are dead and we will see the antichrist and the abomination that makes desolate (3.5 yrs in).

more to come:

Barry Morris
05-17-2016, 06:28 PM
The Rapture doctrine is clearly in Scripture.

The timing of it is not.

RWGR
05-17-2016, 06:30 PM
1) I cannot lose my salvation

2) I will be spared the tribulation period before the Second Coming

Could Satan have devised a better plot to make man comfortable in his current life and lifestyle?

No, he couldn't. He nailed it first try.

Incredibly dangerous theologies. Taken together, no doubt they've combined to lose countless souls.

Barry Morris
05-17-2016, 06:31 PM
Gee, wish you'd back that up with Scripture!!

Oh wait, you did that before many times, I forgot.

RWGR
05-17-2016, 06:34 PM
BM's going to try to derail another thread. Please, for Barney's sake, stop.

Barney Rubble
05-17-2016, 06:40 PM
1 Cor.15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The Last trump is the 7th trump. For the 7th trump to sound, there obviously needs to be a preceding 6!
We will be around for 7 trumps!!!

Why does JESUS tell us to watch ? What reason do we need to watch if we are secretly taken away?
Why would JESUS gather his jewels secretly when HE does nothing in secret? Our GOD is not a secret god.
Sure, HE does state that HE will be like a thief in the night but if you are not watching, of course it will be as a thief.....therefore WATCH!

Barney Rubble
05-17-2016, 06:41 PM
The Rapture doctrine is clearly in Scripture.

The timing of it is not.

Quote scripture to disprove me please

Barney Rubble
05-17-2016, 06:56 PM
Questions:

1 - After the gathering of The Church, by what means are tribulation saints (as per rapture) saved?
2 - To whom was GOD speaking when HE said: Isa.28:15
Because you have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with sheol are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through,
it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: (rapture doctrine)
Amos 9:10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us
3 - If scripture states that we will be around til the 7th trump, what about the preceding 6? Obviously some will be around.




Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things
that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Jn.16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation:
but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world

Bluesky
05-17-2016, 06:58 PM
Barney, I thought you disagreed with the concept of the rapture. I see now that it is the timing you disagree with. I am not going to argue the timing with you. That gets into too much detail for this forum.

RWGR
05-17-2016, 07:04 PM
Barney, I thought you disagreed with the concept of the rapture. I see now that it is the timing you disagree with. I am not going to argue the timing with you. That gets into too much detail for this forum.

LOL...play by Blue's rules, or he will take his ball and go home.

Barney Rubble
05-17-2016, 07:27 PM
Barney, I thought you disagreed with the concept of the rapture. I see now that it is the timing you disagree with. I am not going to argue the timing with you. That gets into too much detail for this forum.

what is "timing"? Of course there is a gathering but I read scripturally that it is not pre trib rapture.

Bluesky
05-17-2016, 07:29 PM
Timing relates to the question of when the 'gathering' will take place. Pre, mid or post trib.

Barry Morris
05-17-2016, 09:01 PM
Quote scripture to disprove me please

Since I believe as you do, that the timing of the Rapture is probably AFTER the tribulation, what would you like me to prove??

Barney Rubble
05-17-2016, 10:52 PM
Since I believe as you do, that the timing of the Rapture is probably AFTER the tribulation, what would you like me to prove??

Ok then...usually when ppl talk about rapture, it is pre trib doctrine & seeing that you said rapture is scriptual, i assumed.
Another reason why i dont even like the word "rapture". I guess I prefer "gathering" :)

Barney Rubble
05-17-2016, 10:56 PM
Timing relates to the question of when the 'gathering' will take place. Pre, mid or post trib.

As you see above, most rapture doctrine that I hear claims pre trib gathering.
I hear the word "rapture" & assume.
As you see, I believe in post trib (7th trump)...any hoot :)

Barry Morris
05-18-2016, 09:18 AM
Ok then...usually when ppl talk about rapture, it is pre trib doctrine & seeing that you said rapture is scriptual, i assumed.
Another reason why i dont even like the word "rapture". I guess I prefer "gathering" :)

The word “rapture” in the bible is from the Latin “rapio” for the two words “caught up” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. It has come into popular use today to refer to the Lord Jesus coming for the church, to lift her up into heaven.

Like many other descriptive terms, like Trinity, millenium or mission, it is properly descriptive.

Barney Rubble
05-18-2016, 12:03 PM
I'm more "old school".
Hence, I dispise Holy Ghost rather to Holy Spirit & other modern translations.
Any hoot!
All cleared up. Back in my day rapture meant pre trib gathering.
:)

Bluesky
05-18-2016, 12:29 PM
No, the word rapture doesn't automatically mean a pretrib rapture. It just means "to be snatched away".

RWGR
05-18-2016, 12:55 PM
Which we all will be at the Second Coming, but not before the tribulation

Bluesky
05-19-2016, 07:59 AM
https://www.facebook.com/mastersseminary/videos/10154211256935990/