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RWGR
07-06-2016, 05:36 PM
Don’t Read Scott Hahn

One of the first mistakes I made as a Protestant was to read Scott Hahn.

Dr. Scott Hahn is a renown bible scholar, and Catholic convert. In the 80’s Scott and his wife Kimberly were part of a wave of famous Catholic converts from Protestantism. Dr. Hahn, a evangelical pastor, was radically converted to Catholicism and soon after his “conversion story,” recorded onto cassette tapes, started being passed around. The popularity of Scott, and then Kimberly’s, stories touched off a massive wave of Catholic conversions and encouraged the pair to write a book based on their experience called Rome Sweet Home.

Do not read Rome Sweet Home.

What you’ll discover is that Scott and Kimberly are intelligent, well-read, and well-meaning people.

They were actual Christians who became actual Catholics.

And it didn’t involve any kind of cult sacrifice!



Don’t Read Church History

A second, major mistake that I made was to read Church history—the history of Christianity.

I did my best. I tried to select a truly academic, historical overview from as secular a source as possible. I didn’t want history tainted by an overly Catholic perspective, a heavily Protestant point-of-view, or a work of pseudo-historical merit. I wanted the real, scholarly deal. I’m a History major, after all, so I figured I could hack it.

From a in-depth reading it’s clear just how tenuous some of the decisions and attitudes of the Early Reformers were. How much of Martin Luther’s personal story of enlightenment is exaggerated. How much of his doctrine of justification and the very things he split from the Church over are driven directly by a manic personality. How so much of the Reformation was thrust forward by cultural, not religious, details. How politics, war, and the European dynasties proliferated and exacerbated tensions.



Don’t Read the Early Church Fathers

A third mistake that I made was nearly fatal: I began to read the Early Church Fathers.

Understand, these are the apostles of the apostles, the Christians who were taught by the very first Christians that Jesus taught. These are giants of Christianity who had direct access to those who heard Jesus’s very words, and touched his flesh. As an evangelical I didn’t even realize that this material existed and when I did, I began to devour it.

When I began to realize that the Early Church didn’t look like the evangelical tradition I had grown up in I was shocked, and then affronted.

I was always told, as an evangelical, that “house churches” were biblical—that independent, small groups of Christians meeting in an “upper room” was what happened in the first centuries of Christianity.

Instead, the Early Church is decidedly Catholic in its doctrine and its hierarchical structure, and if you’re not careful, you may come to a similarly shocking conclusion as I did.



http://www.patheos.com/blogs/albertlittle/how-to-not-become-a-catholic-a-converts-guide/

Barry Morris
07-06-2016, 05:56 PM
I wonder if the early church fathers ever disagreed??

"Instead, the Early Church is decidedly Catholic in its doctrine and its hierarchical structure, and if you’re not careful, you may come to a similarly shocking conclusion as I did."

Means what?? Matches a modern denomination?? Big deal, Protestant Christians are catholic too.

RWGR
07-06-2016, 07:30 PM
I wonder if the early church fathers ever disagreed??

Of course some did. So what?

"Instead, the Early Church is decidedly Catholic in its doctrine and its hierarchical structure, and if you’re not careful, you may come to a similarly shocking conclusion as I did."

Means what?? Matches a modern denomination?? Big deal, Protestant Christians are catholic too.

Not small "c" Catholic, and you know it. It says the early church was similar in hierarchical structure and certain practices, ie the Mass.

RWGR
07-06-2016, 07:31 PM
http://patrickmadrid.blogspot.com/2009/02/church-fathers-explain-mass.html

Barry Morris
07-06-2016, 09:22 PM
So you want us to give consideration to websites by RC folk, but you won't give any consideration (or even a look) to any others.

Sorry, not likely.

Barry Morris
07-06-2016, 09:24 PM
I wonder if the early church fathers ever disagreed??

Of course some did. So what?




But you chastise protestants for having disagreements, but it's no problem for the early church fathers, or the RCC.

Sorry, again.

Barry Morris
07-06-2016, 09:25 PM
Not small "c" Catholic, and you know it. It says the early church was similar in hierarchical structure and certain practices, ie the Mass.

Back that with scripture, if you please.

And do check context!!!

RWGR
07-07-2016, 05:33 PM
So you want us to give consideration to websites by RC folk

Barry, no offense, but I don't want you within a hundred miles of that site. You're a complete lightweight intellectually in these matters; in fact, you're embarrassing much of the time. Please, do not go to that site and converse with others.

The offer was for Blue, he who laments often the lack of quality debate and intellectual rigor here.

Of course, he didn't go. He's smart enough to know he'd get his a** kicked all over the place.

Sorry, not likely

Again, the offer was not for you. You don't even know what you believe, let alone try to figure out Catholicism.

RWGR
07-07-2016, 05:35 PM
But you chastise protestants for having disagreements, but it's no problem for the early church fathers, or the RCC.

Sorry, again.

From our disagreements come the debate that has formed dogma for two thousand years.When you guys disagree someone simply goes and starts another denomination.

It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic.

RWGR
07-07-2016, 05:36 PM
Back that with scripture, if you please.

And do check context!!!

I provided a link where the Church Fathers,many of whom were taught by Jesus; disciples personally ,described early Christian services. Those services are very much like the Catholic Mass of today.

Sorry, I know it stings.

Barry Morris
07-08-2016, 09:08 AM
I provided a link where the Church Fathers,many of whom were taught by Jesus; disciples personally ,described early Christian services. Those services are very much like the Catholic Mass of today.

Sorry, I know it stings.

Not after I see RC churches closing.

But some are smartening up. Especially heartening is to hear the young people singing our songs.

RWGR
07-08-2016, 09:51 AM
LOL. Barry thinks it's a big deal that some non-Catholic songs are sung in church.

Meanwhile, he and all other Protestants use the Bible the RCC gave them.

Now that's kind of a big deal!! :) :) :)

And how does he respond to the fact the early Church Fathers describe almost two thousand years ago the same process that goes on in today's Mass? He makes an unsubstantiated claim that Catholic churches are closing by him.

...and we can call this one done.


NEXT!!!

Barry Morris
07-08-2016, 10:13 AM
LOL. Barry thinks it's a big deal that some non-Catholic songs are sung in church.

Meanwhile, he and all other Protestants use the Bible the RCC gave them.

Now that's kind of a big deal!! :) :) :)

And how does he respond to the fact the early Church Fathers describe almost two thousand years ago the same process that goes on in today's Mass? He makes an unsubstantiated claim that Catholic churches are closing by him.

...and we can call this one done.


NEXT!!!

Sung in church?? Nope, not what I said.

The RC's gave us the bible?? Includeding contradictory books, like the apochrypha. Then we got smarter, stopped trying to translate God's word for our own biases, and looked at the original languages. Not perfect, but MUCH better!!

Churches closing?? Here in Sault Ste. Marie:

Blessed Sacrament: Gone!!

St. Joseph the Worker: Now apartment buildings.

St. John (I think, on Cathcart) closed

Mount Carmel: gone!!

I suppose that, since these are "unsubstantiated", that anyone would find these churches alive and well???

Sorry!!

RWGR
07-08-2016, 10:22 AM
Sung in church?? Nope, not what I said.

What else does one do with a song, BM?

The RC's gave us the bible??

Sure did. Council of Nicea chose what books to put in. That council was made up of Catholics.

Includeding contradictory books, like the apochrypha.

What do they "contradict"?

Then we got smarter, stopped trying to translate God's word for our own biases, and looked at the original languages.

Please tell me your minister did not tell you that?!

Luther added and deleted words in his translation. Which,of course, makes this a bit uncomfortable for you guys ...

"...And if anyone removes any of the words from this book of prophecy, God will remove that person's share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book"

Christians lived by that for 1,250 years before Luther went on his megalomaniac-like rage.


As for church closings, would it possibly have anything to do with your city, like my city, basically losing people due to lack of employment and smaller families today?

The Crystal Cathedral in California, a gem of Protestantism in the 80s, is now a Catholic church and school. Hmmmm, whither Protestantism??

Barry Morris
07-08-2016, 12:13 PM
The RCC only like old music in the Mass. The kids use it elsewhere.

I'll have to look into the ecumenical Council of Nicea some more.

I recall that the Apochrypha said somewhere that God lied. Have to have another look.

That Luther had a translation (not from the original languages, I'd bet) is not surprising. Of course, the RCC adds whole doctrines that contradict Scripture. And it took centuries to come up with them.

As to church closings, unknown to you, the Sault population is indeed down from 40 years ago. But not twenty. And all those churches closed within about the last 10 years.

One more, the Crystal Cathedral was NEVER a gem to Christian believers. More like a cult.

RWGR
07-09-2016, 12:07 PM
The RCC only like old music in the Mass.

Ummm, BM, that "old music" is the OT put to music. But who is surprised you didn't recognize the OT??

I'll have to look into the ecumenical Council of Nicea some more.

Be careful. Many Prots who do so become Catholic. Your Emperor never will, his paycheck is too big to convert.

I recall that the Apochrypha said somewhere that God lied.

Source? Link?

That Luther had a translation (not from the original languages, I'd bet) is not surprising. Of course, the RCC adds whole doctrines that contradict Scripture. And it took centuries to come up with them.

Well, the RCC came up with the Bible in the 300s. Your boy decided it needed a sprucing up in the 1500s. Kind of says it all,BM.

As to church closings, unknown to you, the Sault population is indeed down from 40 years ago. But not twenty. And all those churches closed within about the last 10 years.

So it is all about dwindling population. Thank you.

One more, the Crystal Cathedral was NEVER a gem to Christian believers. More like a cult

Friend, you've never summed up Protestantism better! :) :) :)

Barry Morris
07-09-2016, 05:28 PM
Dwindling populations indeed. Inside the RC churches, as they provide little or nothing for their youth, they pay the price.

Curious. What denomination was your father, RWGR??

RWGR
07-11-2016, 02:26 PM
Dwindling populations indeed. Inside the RC churches, as they provide little or nothing for their youth, they pay the price.

What does dwindling city populations have to do with what is provided to the youth at church?

Curious. What denomination was your father, RWGR??

Non-Denom Protestant.

What denomination was your's?

Barry Morris
07-11-2016, 04:17 PM
Dwindling populations indeed. Inside the RC churches, as they provide little or nothing for their youth, they pay the price.

What does dwindling city populations have to do with what is provided to the youth at church?

Not a thing. Just your usual bafflegab.


Curious. What denomination was your father, RWGR??

Non-Denom Protestant.

What denomination was your's?

That just sounds like someone who saw the truth about the RC.

Mine attended Anglican, then Mormon, then God knows. But a true Christian?? Again, God knows.

RWGR
07-11-2016, 04:18 PM
Not a thing. Just your usual bafflegab.
.

At least you admitted you posted nonsense :)

Barry Morris
07-11-2016, 04:22 PM
At least you admitted you posted nonsense :)

Reading comprehension required, RWGR, when will you get it??

RWGR
07-11-2016, 04:32 PM
You contradict yourself a lot, and to hide that fact you try to place the focus on the other person's reading comprehension.

But, anyone with a modicum of intelligence can see how you operate.

Barry Morris
07-11-2016, 06:04 PM
You contradict yourself a lot, and to hide that fact you try to place the focus on the other person's reading comprehension.

But, anyone with a modicum of intelligence can see how you operate.

I was being gracious. You obviously understood what I was saying but you chose to twist it, and ignore my meaning and point.

YOUR MO!!

RWGR
07-13-2016, 03:13 PM
Sir, of all the things you could be accused of in here, graciousness is NOT one :)

Barry Morris
07-13-2016, 05:31 PM
Sir, of all the things you could be accused of in here, graciousness is NOT one :)

You wouldn't know gracious, if it slapped you in the head, which, the way you act, makes perfect sense.

PS, do find a translator.

RWGR
07-14-2016, 02:34 PM
Translation: "Man, I get PO'd when he calls out my hypocrisy!!"

:) :) :)

Barry Morris
07-14-2016, 02:49 PM
Translation: "Man, I get PO'd when he calls out my hypocrisy!!"

:) :) :)

Buddy, you LIVE hypocrisy!!!