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Anapeg
12-07-2016, 04:27 PM
Whether you call it a carbon tax or cap and trade it means reducing our carbon footprint at the worker/consumer level. The impacts will be far reaching and I just wonder where you all stand on the subject.

blueboy
12-07-2016, 05:57 PM
XMAS NOW later fool

Hans
12-07-2016, 07:05 PM
It is a cash grab, a form of taxation.
I only agree with it when 100% of the revenue goes towards something that improves the environment. You know, when it would actually help the environment.

The system of "green" companies selling their excess "good carbon points" to heavy polluting companies that need extra "good points" to lower their taxes on their "bad points total" is a prime example of how screwed this system is.
It does nothing besides allow companies to sell points for profit, and purchase points to lower taxes.

And at consumer level they slap stickers on equipment to prove the equipment is better for the environment, and charge you extra for it.

For car manufacturers they force them into a constant battle for lower fuel economy and emissions, which means you end up paying more because they need to recover the costs of R&D.

Anapeg
12-07-2016, 09:12 PM
It seems to me it will, if it catches on, put us on an equal footing with the Amish, Mennonite and their ilk. Anything made from manufactured goods will be penalised and with the drop in demand, we will see record unemployment. While I agree with the need to do something I am also pleased to be on the good side of retirement.

Bluesky
12-08-2016, 12:02 PM
So d'ya think we will see a carbon tax on our wood stoves?

Anapeg
12-08-2016, 01:24 PM
So d'ya think we will see a carbon tax on our wood stoves?

Are you being facetious? It is sometimes difficult to discern with your dry sense of humour.

Hans
12-08-2016, 08:04 PM
Well, wood burns best when dry.

Anapeg
12-08-2016, 11:45 PM
We burn a Hell of a lot of wood at camp, how would that be monitored?

Hans
12-09-2016, 06:10 AM
Camp monitors. Like game wardens, but than for camps.

Anapeg
12-09-2016, 02:28 PM
Camp monitors. Like game wardens, but then for camps.

You do have a warped sense of humour, don't you? I like that in a person.

Bluesky
12-09-2016, 05:04 PM
Are you being facetious? It is sometimes difficult to discern with your dry sense of humour.

Not really. Kind of. I heard rumblings of wood stoves being prohibited some day soon..

Hans
12-09-2016, 07:07 PM
That and natural gas in new homes.

Anapeg
12-10-2016, 01:06 AM
Not really. Kind of. I heard rumblings of wood stoves being prohibited some day soon.

We are far too rural a country for that to stick.

Anapeg
12-10-2016, 01:09 AM
That and natural gas in new homes.

I have heard of this one though. So once they effectively shut down the energy industry and manufacture takes a tumble, what is going to be done with all the unemployed. Who houses, feeds and clothes them?

Hans
12-10-2016, 03:44 PM
We just move to Mexico where we can work for 10 pesos an hour on the jobs we outsourced the past 20 years.
It all makes sense once you think about it.

blueboy
12-10-2016, 11:56 PM
Idiots

Anapeg
12-11-2016, 01:56 AM
We just move to Mexico where we can work for 10 pesos an hour on the jobs we outsourced the past 20 years.
It all makes sense once you think about it.

May just have to as our economy fails.

Hans
12-11-2016, 03:15 PM
It fails because of our own actions, not because of economic issues.

Anapeg
12-11-2016, 05:15 PM
It fails because of our own actions, not because of economic issues.

Our actions? There are much larger forces in play than simply the voting public of Canada in this one Hans. Now should you have meant to say the government I would agree their machinations had as much or more to do with the economic demise as some of the outside influences?

Hans
12-12-2016, 05:58 AM
We choose the government. If we picked the wrong choice that is our fault.

Anapeg
12-12-2016, 11:31 AM
I feel this legislation was inevitable regardless the government. Something needs be done to at least mitigate our impact on the only earth we have.

Hans
12-12-2016, 09:42 PM
The issue is this legislation has no effect except for your pocket.

Anapeg
12-12-2016, 11:17 PM
The issue is this legislation has no effect except for your pocket.

You seem far more convinced of that than I Hans. The meagre amount of reading I have done proves to me we need to be swift and decisive to simply slow, not stem our impact. The effects of climate change will surely be felt by your children if not by my own. When we look about we can hardly, with good conscience say it is not changing and for the worse. Who/what is causing the changes at this juncture is a moot point the solution of which will do none of us any good.

Hans
12-13-2016, 12:06 AM
If we do not establish the exact cause, we cannot remedy it.

Anapeg
12-13-2016, 11:48 AM
If we do not establish the exact cause, we cannot remedy it.

So we do nothing in the interim? That leaves us where exactly?

Hans
12-13-2016, 07:26 PM
I did not say do nothing. I am saying we should put the carbon tax money towards research and development and investment of those things that will benefit the environment.


If you think about it, is carbon the real cause for the issue? I think there are many other issues that affect the environment.
Just go over to Essar and smell the fresh air. I don't think you need to be a scientist to realize that is likely affecting the environment and this city is some way.
Why not use carbon tax money and invest it in Essar to get their emissions lowered?
That is what this should be about and it should not cost Essar any money.
Not use it as a bartering and trade tool to make the numbers look good on paper and in reality do very little to nothing.

Anapeg
12-13-2016, 09:28 PM
It is burning fossil fuel that seems to be the culprit and that is carbon is it not? Even peat moss is when used as a heat source is a factor.

Hans
12-13-2016, 09:39 PM
Many items contain carbon. But is it really the culprit?

KDawg
12-13-2016, 09:44 PM
I did not say do nothing. I am saying we should put the carbon tax money towards research and development and investment of those things that will benefit the environment.


If you think about it, is carbon the real cause for the issue? I think there are many other issues that affect the environment.
Just go over to Essar and smell the fresh air. I don't think you need to be a scientist to realize that is likely affecting the environment and this city is some way.
Why not use carbon tax money and invest it in Essar to get their emissions lowered?
That is what this should be about and it should not cost Essar any money.
Not use it as a bartering and trade tool to make the numbers look good on paper and in reality do very little to nothing.

Hans, ANY carbon tax is just a government cash grab -- Money out of your pocket and mine.

Essar has gone into bankruptcy and is looking for investors to keep running and they haven't paid their property taxes to our city to the tune of approx. $20 million.

You now think it's a good idea to give them taxpayer money? WTF?

Hans
12-14-2016, 06:12 AM
As I said before: if the carbon tax money is used towards actually helping the environment than yes.
Lowering of emissions from Essar would not only help, it would also assist in becoming more attractive to interested buyers.

Anapeg
12-15-2016, 10:32 PM
Government giving monies to a private enterprise that is well and truly behind in their taxes. That would never cause a furrowed brow.

Hans
12-16-2016, 05:58 AM
Would you rather have them force foreclosure and turn this city into a graveyard?

Anapeg
12-16-2016, 08:15 AM
Would you rather have them force foreclosure and turn this city into a graveyard?

It is a private enterprise and as such should be free standing. The present owners deliberately placed ESSAR in the precarious position it is in. I believe the government of Canada ought to move in, take over and set the workers employed there run it as a free standing viable business. What was done with ESSAR was nothing short of criminal. Any and all monies were directed to new infrastructure in the U.S. and as such was misappropriated and therefore illegal.

Hans
12-16-2016, 05:49 PM
But in the end it is all legal and over and done.
It is neither Essar, nor the peoples fault. You would do the same if you could.

Anapeg
12-16-2016, 10:23 PM
But in the end, it is all legal and over and done.
It is neither Essar nor the people's fault. You would do the same if you could.

Is it "not" ESSAR's fault? Then who in the Hell's fault is it. It is their company, their bookkeepers, their money, their directions. Who in Hell else could you possibly blame? As for me doing the same thing, speak for yourself. I have a set of morals and would like to believe I live to those standards.

Hans
12-17-2016, 01:25 AM
It is the fault of the tax and other laws, allowing them to do that.

Anapeg
12-17-2016, 12:28 PM
It is the fault of the tax and other laws, allowing them to do that.

This is how our owners have set the system to lean in their favour. This is also the same reasons we need desperately to overhaul both the political as well as financial systems.

Hans
12-17-2016, 03:07 PM
If you had the option to use the tax laws in a way that resulted in not having to pay taxes, would you not do so?

Anapeg
12-17-2016, 06:25 PM
If you had the option to use the tax laws in a way that resulted in not having to pay taxes, would you not do so?

I can with some certainty make the argument for no, I would not. I am one who uses the healthcare system a tremendous amount and see it's benefits. I am dependant on constant maintenance to survive so I would hope I would be one of it's most staunch supporters.
I see with my own eyes the infrastructure tax monies have put in place and maintain daily. Bridges, highways, hospitals, police, ambulance, fire personnel all made possible by tax dollars. Our system sucks, it is top heavy, micro managed, mismanaged and abused but it is ours and the best we have for right now.
So in answer to your query, no I would not try to dodge my portion of the tax burden and will continue to push for a flat tax. Pick a percentage and tax all the same from the guy working for minimum wage to the richest of corporations the same percentage with no qualifiers.

Hans
12-17-2016, 09:07 PM
I think most would use it in a heart beat.

Anapeg
12-18-2016, 11:37 AM
I think most would use it in a heart beat.

This would have no bearing on a court case as "Because we could" is not an accepted argument in court. Court, by the way, is where ESSAR, her owners and administrators all belong for screwing and trying to screw the Canadian taxpayer over.

Reckidecky
02-12-2017, 01:30 AM
Yet nobody has mentioned the UN's Agenda 21 or 2030? Nobody has mentioned TPP? Nobody has mentioned the fact that Canada's contribution of 2% Carbon has us in a position of being a carbon neutral country? Carbon negative actually, if you take into consideration the amount of forest that covers our country.
All these things should really be what the discussion is about. They are in all actuality, the real reasons, and the cause and effect. It's disgraceful what is being done to our country, and all intentionally.
We are being sold, the sovereignty of our country given away through these multilateral trade deals and all to the benifit of multinationals, the richest, whom are working hand in hand with each other to enrich themselves, are destroying our country while redistributing our wealth around the world. They intend on bringing civilization in the western world to its knees, to then be the white knight with shining armour that comes riding in to solve the very problem that they created. We are being duped and we just all sit back and take it because well, I'm doing alright and it doesn't really effect me. Except when it gets to the point that it does effect you individually, it'll be to late. There will be no jobs. How else could you explain the desicions Wynne has made here in Ontario? She has destroyed what was once an economic powerhouse. The cost of energy in this province is out of contro and cheap energy is essential in a modern economy and our high quality of life, yet now, that is a pipe dream from the past, never to return. At the same time, selling a publicly owned asset that generated millions upon millions to provide funds for this province, on a continual basis for things like education, healthcare, and infrastructure. Soon to be gone. How can you possibly justify that?
Trudeau, giving billions to other countries around the world at the same time, while not working to create even a single job or the conditions to attract investment, but actually doing the opposite, imposing more taxes. Opening our borders to the world, to anybody and everybody putting yet even more of a strain on the public purse. Does all this actually make sense to anybody? We're in big trouble!!