PDA

View Full Version : Ravi Zacharias video clip



Bluesky
01-05-2017, 01:33 PM
https://www.facebook.com/ravizacharias/videos/10153334362981813/

The article that he references.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/2008/12/atheist-promotes-christianity-in-africa/

Amazing, coming from an atheist.

Anapeg
01-05-2017, 04:53 PM
It still comes down to a Saviour who requires He be the reason and He wants credit and adoration for what you do in His name. You can do all the good you wish but failing to present your goodness in His name disallows you from Heaven. That is screwed up, sorry.

Bluesky
01-07-2017, 07:49 PM
It still comes down to a Saviour who requires He be the reason and He wants credit and adoration for what you do in His name. You can do all the good you wish but failing to present your goodness in His name disallows you from Heaven. That is screwed up, sorry.

I am not sure I understand you.

Anapeg
01-07-2017, 09:37 PM
It is not the good you do that gets you into Heaven rather it is the credit you give God for the good you do that paves the way. I can do all the good possible yet because I do not give Him credit and I do not praise Him, my good deeds go for nought.

Barry Morris
01-08-2017, 01:40 AM
It is not the good you do that gets you into Heaven rather it is the credit you give God for the good you do that paves the way. I can do all the good possible yet because I do not give Him credit and I do not praise Him, my good deeds go for nought.
The Bible says every righteous thing we do is like a filthy rag to God. So what will you do??

Anapeg
01-08-2017, 03:29 PM
The Bible says every righteous thing we do is like a filthy rag to God. So what will you do??

Does this not completely discredit works done by anyone who nothing of God? Simply because they have not accepted Him their good deeds fall on infertile ground. This argument is circular, it comes down to God being narcissistic if you will.

Hans
01-08-2017, 05:56 PM
The Bible says every righteous thing we do is like a filthy rag to God. So what will you do??

The Bible says a lot of things, that does not mean it is all truth.

Barney Rubble
01-10-2017, 04:25 PM
According to The Bible, you are not saved by works in Jesus' name nor simply good works at all.
The thief on the cross had no evident good works to speak of.

Eph*2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The Bible says that it is faith in Christ that saves you.
That is the BIG difference between Christianity & other religions.
The majority of others believe in spirituality & works for salvation, yet Christianity (true Christianity) states that:

Ac*4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Joh*14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Barney Rubble
01-10-2017, 05:05 PM
The Bible says a lot of things, that does not mean it is all truth.

Is this an absolute truth?
Being that this is a subjective truth, I think you should put "In my opinion"! :)

Anapeg
01-10-2017, 07:43 PM
According to The Bible: Joh*14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So heathens not enlightened by God are condemned to an eternity in Hell because neither have they been redeemed? Now all this aside, an atheist, agnostic, or one not enlightened is to be judged under what guidelines? Jewish, Christian, Muslim or any other number of followers? If people are Christian and God turns out to be as I believe a Jew, where do they stand?

Barry Morris
01-10-2017, 08:16 PM
So heathens not enlightened by God are condemned to an eternity in Hell because neither have they been redeemed? Now all this aside, an atheist, agnostic, or one not enlightened is to be judged under what guidelines? Jewish, Christian, Muslim or any other number of followers? If people are Christian and God turns out to be as I believe a Jew, where do they stand?

My opinion,. for what it`s worth.

I`m talking about eternal salvation here. Nothing else.

It is my opinion that trust in something greater than ourselves is the bottom line when it comes to eternally living with God.

What good act could we perform to impress God. None

What theology could we learn to impress God, or understand His infinite being. None.

From the moment a person realizes that God exists, and he turns to seek Him, he is a child of God.

And there is no denomination or form of religion that affects that.

FWIW.

Some don`t like it.

Hans
01-10-2017, 08:31 PM
Is this an absolute truth?
Being that this is a subjective truth, I think you should put "In my opinion"! :)


Read the first 20 pages, count how many names it gives, than ask yourself how correct those could be.
I would say very incorrect.

Bluesky
01-11-2017, 07:35 AM
This would be a beneficial discussion if posters would actually interact with the message of the speaker in the video. Did you think what he had to say was convincing?

Hans
01-11-2017, 09:06 AM
Africa had already enough Christianity pushed on them in the past.
No need to do it all over again.
I am sure that if they wanted it they can get it themselves.

Barney Rubble
01-12-2017, 03:59 PM
So heathens not enlightened by God are condemned to an eternity in Hell because neither have they been redeemed? Now all this aside, an atheist, agnostic, or one not enlightened is to be judged under what guidelines? Jewish, Christian, Muslim or any other number of followers? If people are Christian and God turns out to be as I believe a Jew, where do they stand?

Not condemned but rather "separated" from GOD.
Since GOD can not condone sin nor live with it, the unrepented sinner is separated from GOD by thgat own person's recourse.
Seeing that GOD is all good & righteous, logic & order, what is left?
chaos, disorder & evil = hell (whether it be physical fire & brimstone or not)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pet 3:9

GOD does not condemn anybody.
They condemn themselves.

Barney Rubble
01-12-2017, 04:01 PM
My opinion,. for what it`s worth.

I`m talking about eternal salvation here. Nothing else.

It is my opinion that trust in something greater than ourselves is the bottom line when it comes to eternally living with God.

What good act could we perform to impress God. None

What theology could we learn to impress God, or understand His infinite being. None.

From the moment a person realizes that God exists, and he turns to seek Him, he is a child of God.

And there is no denomination or form of religion that affects that.

FWIW.

Some don`t like it.

How does one seek GOD then? To be a child of GOD?
What must one do to be saved?

Bluesky
01-13-2017, 09:55 AM
This post is for Christians.. I need to say something.. to us.

Since GOD can not condone sin nor live with it, the unrepented sinner is separated from GOD by that own person's recourse.

I have always had a problem with the view that depicts God as kind of a milquetoast who cannot bear the presence of sin, sort of like a sissy who cannot stand the sight of blood.

Or like Superman who cannot be in the presence of kryptonite.

This view causes people to think God has a weakness. ("SIN!! get away from me, I can't stand it.")

I know that is not how most Christians mean it, but that is how it is communicated. God can't bear sin. In other words, it's his problem.

Let me try this on you.
Man was created by God with purpose and meaning. We are meant to live for Him.
Sin happens when we live, act or speak outside of his defined purpose for us. He meant for us to live in harmony with Him and with one another. There's a Jewish word for that - shalom.

Whatever destroys that shalom, that peace, is sin. Hating your brother, taking something that is not yours, worshipping gods that do not exist, disrespecting your elders, breaking civil law, etc.

Why can't God tolerate sin? Because it diminishes what He loves. Sin breaks the trust that was to exist between Him and those whom He created in His own image.

Bluesky
01-13-2017, 09:58 AM
From the moment a person realizes that God exists, and he turns to seek Him, he is a child of God.

FWIW.

Some don`t like it.

mm, I wonder why.
Barry, your opinion seems pretty absolutist. So you are saying the radical Muslim who is sincere in seeking God, and truly thinks he is obeying God by blowing himself up along with taking dozens with him is a child of God then.

Barry Morris
01-16-2017, 04:31 PM
How does one seek GOD then? To be a child of GOD?
What must one do to be saved?

I believe that Christians have all kinds of formulas and practices to "come to God". And many of them we don't fully understand.

But in the end, God knows each man's heart. And if that heart seeks God, God knows it and takes it in.

Barry Morris
01-16-2017, 04:33 PM
mm, I wonder why.
Barry, your opinion seems pretty absolutist. So you are saying the radical Muslim who is sincere in seeking God, and truly thinks he is obeying God by blowing himself up along with taking dozens with him is a child of God then.

Am I?? I don't think so.

I think you just might prefer the formulas mentioned above, derived from the bible, written in large part by three murderers.

God knows the heart.

Hans
01-16-2017, 10:32 PM
And you know that how?

Barry Morris
01-17-2017, 05:42 PM
And you know that how?

I can read, I don't automatically accept political correctness, and I have an open mind.

Hans
01-17-2017, 07:01 PM
I disagree with you having an open mind.

But I was more referring to your last sentence "God knows the heart."

How do you know that? Did you read that somewhere, heard it somewhere?
Or is it simply a conclusion, or something you believe to be correct?

Barney Rubble
01-19-2017, 11:52 PM
I believe that Christians have all kinds of formulas and practices to "come to God". And many of them we don't fully understand.

But in the end, God knows each man's heart. And if that heart seeks God, God knows it and takes it in.

The word "Christian", itself, means follower of Christ therefore there are no secret formulas or practises to come to GOD.
GOD said "This is my beloved Son, hear ye him"!
The only way to be saved, according to The Bible, is to believe in faith that Jesus is The Christ, was crucified for a payment of sins & defeated death on the third day.
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me".

To attest that there are other ways to please GOD & come to Him makes me wonder if they are really Christian at all.

Anapeg
01-20-2017, 02:04 PM
There has to be a special place in Hell for those such as myself. When confronted with a query for an identifier I identify myself Christian. More to avoid drawn conversations than complacency. As an agnostic, I am choosing to use a bald faced lie rather than to engage in defending my stance. In my defense, I was brought up staunchly Catholic and changed my views in my 20's.

Barry Morris
01-20-2017, 05:14 PM
The word "Christian", itself, means follower of Christ therefore there are no secret formulas or practises to come to GOD.
GOD said "This is my beloved Son, hear ye him"!
The only way to be saved, according to The Bible, is to believe in faith that Jesus is The Christ, was crucified for a payment of sins & defeated death on the third day.
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me".

To attest that there are other ways to please GOD & come to Him makes me wonder if they are really Christian at all.

Barney, i'm quite sure that anyone who accepts in his heart what you have said will be saved.

But there's a few thing that have gotten me to thinking over the years.. I find it funny that Bluesky calls ME an absolutist, when I see a sentence like "the only way..." etc.

Can a child be saved?? Of course we believe that. How much of that sentence can a child understand?? IMO, not much, BUT he can be and is saved if he trusts.

And one who seeks God, with no knowledge of Jesus at all. Does God see his heart? Indeed he does, and I believe he will be saved when he seeks God. Hopefully, he goes on and learns more, but I believe that salvation can come long before knowledge. Trust in the key.

And, BTW, did Jesus make the way for such a one?? Absolutely, even as He did for such as Job, who never heard His name, or knew who He is.

What do you think, Barney.

Bluesky
01-20-2017, 07:21 PM
When I say you are an absolutist, I am referring to your strong belief in your own opinion. You come dangerously close to denying the biblical gospel. That is, that Jesus Christ died for the sins of mankind, and that we must believe in Him as our Saviour. Barney is absolutely right. A Christian is a follower of Christ.

If a person is sincerely seeking as a Muslim, and becomes a more faithful Muslim as a result, I ask you again, is that person a Christian? Yes or no please.

Barry Morris
01-21-2017, 10:32 AM
When I say you are an absolutist, I am referring to your strong belief in your own opinion. You come dangerously close to denying the biblical gospel. That is, that Jesus Christ died for the sins of mankind, and that we must believe in Him as our Saviour. Barney is absolutely right. A Christian is a follower of Christ.

If a person is sincerely seeking as a Muslim, and becomes a more faithful Muslim as a result, I ask you again, is that person a Christian? Yes or no please.

Do I absolutely trust God? Yes, and just because you don't like the way I word my statements makes no difference to me.

As far as anyone's salvation is concerned, I think I'll let God decide.

Hans
01-21-2017, 03:27 PM
Do I absolutely trust God? Yes, and just because you don't like the way I word my statements makes no difference to me.

As far as anyone's salvation is concerned, I think I'll let God decide.

"and just because you don't like the way I word my statements makes no difference to me"

As I said before: I disagree with you having an open mind.

Barry Morris
01-21-2017, 05:37 PM
"and just because you don't like the way I word my statements makes no difference to me"

As I said before: I disagree with you having an open mind.

OK by me!!

Bluesky
01-24-2017, 08:43 AM
Do I absolutely trust God? Yes, and just because you don't like the way I word my statements makes no difference to me.

As far as anyone's salvation is concerned, I think I'll let God decide.


He has already decided. He told us plainly.
You're not listening.
You prefer your own opinion.
You spin the gospel to make it more palatable to your sensitivities.

Anapeg
01-24-2017, 02:09 PM
He has already decided. He told us plainly.
You're not listening.
You prefer your own opinion.
You spin the gospel to make it more palatable to your sensitivities.

Hence my problem with anyone translating the Bible. We all, bar none, have an agenda, a bias that will out regardless.

Barry Morris
01-24-2017, 05:37 PM
Hence my problem with anyone translating the Bible. We all, bar none, have an agenda, a bias that will out regardless.

Quite right.

However, I wish I could get some explanations, particularly about the differences between a child being saved and an educated adult.

Also some clarification of EXACTLY what one must BELIEVE to be saved, from Blue's point of view.

The bible says,. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." Believe what?? As much as a child or as much as a theologian?? Or where is the line drawn??

Barry Morris
01-30-2017, 08:03 AM
As in politics, especially lately, there are some things folks just don't want to consider.

Barry Morris
06-30-2017, 12:52 PM
Quite right.

However, I wish I could get some explanations, particularly about the differences between a child being saved and an educated adult.

Also some clarification of EXACTLY what one must BELIEVE to be saved, from Blue's point of view.

The bible says,. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." Believe what?? As much as a child or as much as a theologian?? Or where is the line drawn??

Bluesky dumps anyone who questions.

He is not the only one.

Aristotle
06-30-2017, 01:14 PM
It's always nice when people find common ground!

Aristotle
07-01-2017, 05:21 PM
The bible says,. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." Believe what?? As much as a child or as much as a theologian?? Or where is the line drawn??

Satan believes in Jesus, is he saved?

Aristotle
07-02-2017, 09:39 AM
Bluesky dumps anyone who questions.

He is not the only one.

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Mat 7:5

Barry Morris
07-02-2017, 08:36 PM
Satan believes in Jesus, is he saved?

Thanks for making my point.

No discussion.

Barry Morris
07-02-2017, 08:38 PM
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Mat 7:5

Very aware of that verse.

It's the kind of thing Trump would say to anyone who points out HIS deficiencies.

Aristotle
07-03-2017, 07:17 AM
Thanks for making my point.

No discussion.

You are avoiding the potential discussion.Why?

A simple yes or no answer would suffice at this point.

Aristotle
07-03-2017, 07:18 AM
Very aware of that verse.

It's the kind of thing Trump would say to anyone who points out HIS deficiencies.

And trying to change the subject to Trump is a ploy used by those who will not face their own deficiencies, wouldn't you say?

Barry Morris
07-03-2017, 11:36 AM
You are avoiding the potential discussion.Why?

A simple yes or no answer would suffice at this point.

You answered a question with a question. Not very helpful.

Aristotle
07-03-2017, 12:29 PM
How come you are not answering a simple question? It seems strange, seeing you earlier lamented others doing the same.

You said all one has to do is believe in Jesus to be saved. Fine. Satan believes in Jesus, is he saved?

Pretty simple question.

Barry Morris
07-03-2017, 02:26 PM
How come you are not answering a simple question? It seems strange, seeing you earlier lamented others doing the same.

You said all one has to do is believe in Jesus to be saved. Fine. Satan believes in Jesus, is he saved?

Pretty simple question.

I quoted the bible. You believe the bible, don't you. I wanted some discussion about what is required by this biblical quote. Don't YOU want to discuss that?? I imagine the answer to your question will come up eventually.

Aristotle
07-03-2017, 04:47 PM
Okay, I'll take your constant avoidance as proof my question has you stuck.

Moving on ...

Barry Morris
07-03-2017, 07:53 PM
Okay, I'll take your constant avoidance as proof my question has you stuck.

Moving on ...

Okay, I'll take your constant avoidance as proof my question has you stuck.

Moving on .. :) :) :)

Barry Morris
07-03-2017, 07:54 PM
So, as I said, "The bible says,. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." Believe what?? As much as a child or as much as a theologian?? Or where is the line drawn??"

Hans
07-03-2017, 07:57 PM
Interesting you posed the question "believe what??"
Finally starting to see the light Barry?

Anapeg
07-03-2017, 07:57 PM
How come you are not answering a simple question? It seems strange, seeing you earlier lamented others doing the same.

You said all one has to do is believe in Jesus to be saved. Fine. Satan believes in Jesus, is he saved?

Pretty simple question.

Does it not say somewhere anyone is redeemable?

Barry Morris
07-03-2017, 08:00 PM
When I say you are an absolutist, I am referring to your strong belief in your own opinion. You come dangerously close to denying the biblical gospel. That is, that Jesus Christ died for the sins of mankind, and that we must believe in Him as our Saviour. Barney is absolutely right. A Christian is a follower of Christ.

If a person is sincerely seeking as a Muslim, and becomes a more faithful Muslim as a result, I ask you again, is that person a Christian? Yes or no please.

Let me ask again, taking away what YOU added to my statement and clarifying my meaning. "If a person is sincerely seeking God as a Muslim, is that person saved?" I believe yes. God knows the heart. If he trusts God just like a little child, are YOU absolutely sure he is lost???

Barry Morris
07-04-2017, 12:14 AM
I think I know two ways that fool men into thinking they are saved. One is belonging to the correct religious organization. The other is unquestioning acceptance of a set of theological beliefs.

Barry Morris
07-04-2017, 12:15 AM
Does it not say somewhere anyone is redeemable?

Absolutely.

Barry Morris
07-04-2017, 12:15 AM
Interesting you posed the question "believe what??"
Finally starting to see the light Barry?

Not getting your point.

Hans
07-04-2017, 06:24 AM
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." Believe what??

Good question, believe what??
I think you are starting to understand it Barry.

Barry Morris
07-05-2017, 10:25 AM
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." Believe what??

Good question, believe what??
I think you are starting to understand it Barry.

Nope. Sorry. have no idea what you are getting at.

Hans
07-05-2017, 05:21 PM
No need to be modest about it Barry, I get it.

Aristotle
07-05-2017, 06:47 PM
I think I know two ways that fool men into thinking they are saved. One is belonging to the correct religious organization. The other is unquestioning acceptance of a set of theological beliefs.

That would be true, but are there any people who believe they are saved simply because of what church they attend?

Without question, one of the most diabolical theologies satan has ever given man is the idea of "once saved, always saved"

What an incredibly dangerous and un-biblical teaching.

Aristotle
07-05-2017, 06:48 PM
Okay, I'll take your constant avoidance as proof my question has you stuck.

Moving on

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery :) :) :)

Aristotle
07-05-2017, 06:49 PM
Does it not say somewhere anyone is redeemable?

Yes, anyone is redeemable.

But that has nothing to do with "believe in Jesus and you are saved"

Satan believes in Jesus, is he saved?

Barry Morris
07-05-2017, 07:48 PM
That would be true, but are there any people who believe they are saved simply because of what church they attend?

Without question, one of the most diabolical theologies satan has ever given man is the idea of "once saved, always saved"

What an incredibly dangerous and un-biblical teaching.

We wern't talking about that belief in the least. But hey, I'm not surprised that you keep bringing it up, since you don't understand it at all.

No, not don't. Won't

Barry Morris
07-05-2017, 07:49 PM
Yes, anyone is redeemable.

But that has nothing to do with "believe in Jesus and you are saved"

Satan believes in Jesus, is he saved?

Why don't you answer the question, and explain it to us.

Aristotle
07-06-2017, 02:54 PM
We wern't talking about that belief in the least. But hey, I'm not surprised that you keep bringing it up, since you don't understand it at all.

No, not don't. Won't

We were talking about dangerous beliefs. Your belief of Once Saved Always Saved is one of the more dangerous ones.

Aristotle
07-06-2017, 02:55 PM
Why don't you answer the question, and explain it to us.

I don't believe he is saved, because merely believing in Jesus is not enough to be saved.

Now, your turn ...

Aristotle
07-07-2017, 02:13 PM
Now, your turn ...

Barry Morris
07-07-2017, 04:12 PM
I don't believe he is saved, because merely believing in Jesus is not enough to be saved.

Now, your turn ...

Well, I guess if I believed in Jesus, I'd believe what He said, correct? So obviously, something is a little different. Maybe trust?? Which I think I said before.

Barry Morris
07-07-2017, 04:15 PM
We were talking about dangerous beliefs. Your belief of Once Saved Always Saved is one of the more dangerous ones.

Paul knew the way some would interpret that, and spoke about it.

But you don't know your bible that well, because the denomination you call your "salvation" doesn't want you to know it.

Aristotle
07-08-2017, 10:57 AM
Well, I guess if I believed in Jesus, I'd believe what He said, correct? So obviously, something is a little different. Maybe trust?? Which I think I said before.

So then simply believing in Jesus is not enough.

Thank you.

Aristotle
07-08-2017, 10:58 AM
Paul knew the way some would interpret that, and spoke about it.

But you don't know your bible that well, because the denomination you call your "salvation" doesn't want you to know it.

So in your childish attacks and avoidance of the issue we can assume you cannot back up your unbiblical belief.

Thank you.

Barry Morris
07-09-2017, 09:02 AM
So then simply believing in Jesus is not enough.

Thank you.

Seems to me that believing in this instance means a lot of things, some of which Satan would reject.

Depends on your point of view. A rejecting one, for example.

Barry Morris
07-09-2017, 09:04 AM
So in your childish attacks and avoidance of the issue we can assume you cannot back up your unbiblical belief.

Thank you.

Would be unbiblical is you could explain how a born again, Holy Spirit filled child of God could end up in hell.

Do remember the Prodigal Son. He lost his inheritance, but still remained a son.

Aristotle
07-09-2017, 10:52 AM
Would be unbiblical is you could explain how a born again, Holy Spirit filled child of God could end up in hell.

Do remember the Prodigal Son. He lost his inheritance, but still remained a son.

Correct, but he was forgiven because he was contrite of heart.

The Prodigal Son has nothing to do with Once Saved, Always Saved.

Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13) "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.

Galatians 5:4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

If you are "severed from Christ" then that means at one time you were one with Him. You can't be severed from something you were never a part of.

Barry Morris
07-09-2017, 12:54 PM
Correct, but he was forgiven because he was contrite of heart.

The Prodigal Son has nothing to do with Once Saved, Always Saved.

Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13) "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.

Galatians 5:4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

If you are "severed from Christ" then that means at one time you were one with Him. You can't be severed from something you were never a part of.

The Prodigal is a prime example of one who walked away from the Father, yet always remained a son. Once a son, always a son.

Please consider this: https://carm.org/does-galatians54-teach-that-we-can-lose-our-salvation

Aristotle
07-09-2017, 07:39 PM
The Prodigal is a prime example of one who walked away from the Father, yet always remained a son. Once a son, always a son.

Please consider this: https://carm.org/does-galatians54-teach-that-we-can-lose-our-salvation

You're getting the wrong message from the story of the Prodigal Son.

The message is this: no matter how previous our past acts and sins, God will accept you back if you are contrite of heart.

In the story, God is represented as the father, and mankind is the son. The son (man) rejects the father (God), yet when the son returns and is honestly contrite, the father accepts him and forgives him.

If Once Saved Always Saved were true, the story of the Prodigal Son would not make any sense, let alone even be needed. Why? Because no one is capable of falling away.

Human history has shown us, of course, that this is simply untrue.

Aristotle
07-09-2017, 07:42 PM
Please consider this

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/once-saved-always-saved

Barney Rubble
07-09-2017, 08:16 PM
Also note:

Heb 3:14
For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ.

If we are saved & can never fall away, why would Paul Say "For if we are faithful to the end" ?

Note the IF in that passage

Barry Morris
07-09-2017, 09:08 PM
You're getting the wrong message from the story of the Prodigal Son.

The message is this: no matter how previous our past acts and sins, God will accept you back if you are contrite of heart.

In the story, God is represented as the father, and mankind is the son. The son (man) rejects the father (God), yet when the son returns and is honestly contrite, the father accepts him and forgives him.

If Once Saved Always Saved were true, the story of the Prodigal Son would not make any sense, let alone even be needed. Why? Because no one is capable of falling away.

Human history has shown us, of course, that this is simply untrue.

The story of the Prodigal makes perfect sense IF one recognizes that not all are legitimate children of God. The Prodigal was always a legitimate son, and because of that, could not fall away. There ARE illegitimate sons, and they are never saved. Please note the words of the Father to the elder son, "All that I have is yours". That shows the loss of the junior, but his salvation was never in question.

Barry Morris
07-09-2017, 09:13 PM
Also note:

Heb 3:14
For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ.

If we are saved & can never fall away, why would Paul Say "For if we are faithful to the end" ?

Note the IF in that passage

I not the "if". But the "share in Christ" doesn't mean salvation, since the bible calls the saved His "brothers" And a relationship like that cannot end, just like our earthly relationships cannot end.

Barry Morris
07-09-2017, 09:16 PM
Please consider this

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/once-saved-always-saved

Find me in your Catholic tradition where one can be unborn again, unfilled with the Spirit, become NOT a son any longer, and a brother no more.

Aristotle
07-10-2017, 12:55 PM
Also note:

Heb 3:14
For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ.

If we are saved & can never fall away, why would Paul Say "For if we are faithful to the end" ?

Note the IF in that passage

You nailed it, Barney

Aristotle
07-10-2017, 01:01 PM
The story of the Prodigal makes perfect sense IF one recognizes that not all are legitimate children of God.

Any human being born in history is a child of God. God is father to all, not just a select few.

The Prodigal was always a legitimate son, and because of that, could not fall away.

You are absolutely reading the story incorrectly. It has nothing to do with being unable to lose your salvation, and has everything to do with God's infinite and unfathomable mercy.


There ARE illegitimate sons, and they are never saved.

Nowhere does the Bible teach that. However, the Koran surely does.

Please note the words of the Father to the elder son, "All that I have is yours". That shows the loss of the junior, but his salvation was never in question.

It shows nothing of the sort.

Aristotle
07-10-2017, 01:02 PM
I not the "if". But the "share in Christ" doesn't mean salvation, since the bible calls the saved His "brothers".

But wait ... you have used the fact the Bible says Jesus has "brothers" to mean he literally had brothers.

So now you're saying it's both literal and metaphorical?

Aristotle
07-10-2017, 01:03 PM
Find me in your Catholic tradition where one can be unborn again, unfilled with the Spirit, become NOT a son any longer, and a brother no more.

I just did with that prior link

Barry Morris
07-11-2017, 07:20 PM
I just did with that prior link

I see nothing in that link that answers my question.

Edit to add it's interesting to see the non-biblical answers of the church, claiming a higher authority than the bible.

Barry Morris
07-11-2017, 07:23 PM
But wait ... you have used the fact the Bible says Jesus has "brothers" to mean he literally had brothers.

So now you're saying it's both literal and metaphorical?

And why not?? In spite of the denial of the RCC, most other scholars do indeed believe Mary had other children, including sons.

Through all of this, it is clear why RC's hate to use the term "born again". It makes all the works they do the means of salvation, instead of a change granted by grace, to become a legitimate child of God, and a brother of Christ.

Aristotle
07-12-2017, 04:27 PM
I see nothing in that link that answers my question.

Edit to add it's interesting to see the non-biblical answers of the church, claiming a higher authority than the bible.

There is nothing non-blblical, and the Church has never claimed its teachings are above the Bible...the book the Church gave us :) :) :)

Aristotle
07-12-2017, 04:32 PM
And why not?? In spite of the denial of the RCC, most other scholars do indeed believe Mary had other children, including sons.

You didn't answer my question.

So, when the subject is Mary's perpetual virginity, you will claim "Jesus' brethren" means actual brothers. However, when the subject is being one with Christ, you claim brethren means those who are saved.

So, you pick and choose when a certain passage should mean a certain thing, based solely on it supporting your pre-conceived notions. You are not concerned with finding actual truth, you're concerned with cherry picking particular verses to support what you already believe.

Barry, THANK YOU for perfectly showing a magesterium and teaching authority is needed!

As I've said before, you are actually an important RCC ally here!

Through all of this, it is clear why RC's hate to use the term "born again". It makes all the works they do the means of salvation, instead of a change granted by grace, to become a legitimate child of God, and a brother of Christ

The RCC does not shy away from "born again", it just avoids the wrong definition people like you attach to it.

The RCC always talks about being born again, as in the born again waters of baptism.

Barry Morris
07-13-2017, 07:57 AM
And why not?? In spite of the denial of the RCC, most other scholars do indeed believe Mary had other children, including sons.

You didn't answer my question.

So, when the subject is Mary's perpetual virginity, you will claim "Jesus' brethren" means actual brothers. However, when the subject is being one with Christ, you claim brethren means those who are saved.

So, you pick and choose when a certain passage should mean a certain thing, based solely on it supporting your pre-conceived notions. You are not concerned with finding actual truth, you're concerned with cherry picking particular verses to support what you already believe.

Barry, THANK YOU for perfectly showing a magesterium and teaching authority is needed!

As I've said before, you are actually an important RCC ally here!

Through all of this, it is clear why RC's hate to use the term "born again". It makes all the works they do the means of salvation, instead of a change granted by grace, to become a legitimate child of God, and a brother of Christ

The RCC does not shy away from "born again", it just avoids the wrong definition people like you attach to it.

The RCC always talks about being born again, as in the born again waters of baptism.


You sew confusion very well.

Re brothers No reason it can't mean both.

The RCC has told it's people for centuries that they cannot understand scripture, when even the bible itself speaks of those who studied it for themselves. That's why the magisterium exists, to perpetuate their power.

Re born again. Of course you avoid it, just like "new creation". Doesn't fit YOUR preconcieved notions. Truth doesn't matter. Another reason the RCC doesn't come out with better bible translations.


You have a great weekend. Will be away for a while.

Barry Morris
07-18-2017, 11:07 PM
I think that the reason the RCC doesn't like "born again", "new creation", and the discussion of 'illegitimate" and "legitimate" is that they all speak of some kind of change in the new believer. If there is no change, then the church can insist on its peoples good works to attain salvation.

Aristotle
07-19-2017, 04:57 PM
Re brothers No reason it can't mean both.

But who determines when it means what? Each individual, according so Sola Scriptura. The results: tens of thousands of Protestant denominations. It kind of says it all.

The RCC has told it's people for centuries that they cannot understand scripture That's why the magisterium exists, to perpetuate their power.

The RCC has stated the Bible can be difficult to understand at times. Again, tens of thousands of Protestant denominations proves the RCC was right on.

Re born again. Of course you avoid it

We don't avoid it, we just avoid your error-proned view on it, thank God.

Aristotle
07-19-2017, 04:59 PM
I think that the reason the RCC doesn't like "born again", "new creation", and the discussion of 'illegitimate" and "legitimate" is that they all speak of some kind of change in the new believer. If there is no change, then the church can insist on its peoples good works to attain salvation.

And yet another lie. Truth just isn't that important to you, is it?

Show me in the Catechism where the RCC says good works attains salvation. You have made the claim, now is your chance to prove it.

Barry Morris
07-19-2017, 08:58 PM
Re brothers No reason it can't mean both.

But who determines when it means what? Each individual, according so Sola Scriptura. The results: tens of thousands of Protestant denominations. It kind of says it all.

The RCC has told it's people for centuries that they cannot understand scripture That's why the magisterium exists, to perpetuate their power.

The RCC has stated the Bible can be difficult to understand at times. Again, tens of thousands of Protestant denominations proves the RCC was right on.

Re born again. Of course you avoid it

We don't avoid it, we just avoid your error-proned view on it, thank God.

Love how you avoid answering!!! Thanks!!!!

Harp on the "tens of thousands" all you want, most of whom agree with the doctrines the others hold, and most of yours!!!

Barry Morris
07-19-2017, 09:00 PM
And yet another lie. Truth just isn't that important to you, is it?

Show me in the Catechism where the RCC says good works attains salvation. You have made the claim, now is your chance to prove it.

But, Ari, if grace isn't enough, and this free gift can be rejected, and a person can't be "born again", become a "child of God", and be a "new creation", what's left??

Just poor you, trying to work your way into heaven.

Aristotle
07-22-2017, 12:58 PM
But, Ari, if grace isn't enough, and this free gift can be rejected, and a person can't be "born again", become a "child of God", and be a "new creation", what's left??

Just poor you, trying to work your way into heaven.

Let's check with the RCC itself, to see what they say about being saved by works:

Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"- reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: 'If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'"

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2005.htm

So a favorite lie and criticism of the RCC by Barry is shown to be but a strawman.

The RCC teaches works are the fruits of grace. Works grow from grace like a branch grows on a tree.

Aristotle
07-22-2017, 12:59 PM
Harp on the "tens of thousands" all you want, most of whom agree with the doctrines the others hold

If they did, there wouldn't be a need to have tens of thousands, now would there? ;)

Barry Morris
09-04-2017, 12:23 PM
If they did, there wouldn't be a need to have tens of thousands, now would there? ;)

They do, you just hate to admit it.

Tell us exactly what "new creation" and "born again" mean, from the RCC point of view. Back it with Scripture.

Aristotle
09-04-2017, 06:07 PM
They do, you just hate to admit it.

If they did, there wouldn't be a need to have tens of thousands, now would there? ;)

Tell us exactly what "new creation" and "born again" mean, from the RCC point of view. Back it with Scripture.

With two thousand years of Church history to back it up, plus the brilliance of many Church Fathers, I'd love to point you in the right direction!


https://www.catholic.com/tract/are-catholics-born-again

Barry Morris
09-05-2017, 01:54 PM
They do, you just hate to admit it.

If they did, there wouldn't be a need to have tens of thousands, now would there? ;)

Tell us exactly what "new creation" and "born again" mean, from the RCC point of view. Back it with Scripture.

With two thousand years of Church history to back it up, plus the brilliance of many Church Fathers, I'd love to point you in the right direction!


https://www.catholic.com/tract/are-catholics-born-again

Easy to post URL's ain't it. So much for your often proclaimed bible knowledge.

Barry Morris
09-05-2017, 01:56 PM
Explain this:

John 1:12

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Seems to me that indicates a change, and that there is something different about a person when he becomes born again.

And for goodness sake, don't quote Joan of Arc again!!!