No Fly

[The Berean]

"The more crippling "no fly" list has 45,000 names on it, Wolf reports.
Prior to 9/11, the list had just 16 names, but 44,984 suspects were quickly manufactured to justify the creation of the vast airport security apparatus at God knows what cost to American taxpayers.
One ludicrous "no fly" story concerns John Graham, president of the nonprofit Giraffe Heroes Project, an organization that honors people who stick their necks out. A former government careerist who served in Viet Nam, Graham is an inspired speaker that receives standing ovations from groups such as West Point cadets, yet is kept from flying from his Langley, Wash., base by the National Security Agency. NSA won't tell him why, either. Maybe they have "secret" information on him, too."

"Prior to 9/11, the list had just 16 names, but 44,984 suspects were quickly manufactured..."

Just 16 names??? Shows how ludicrous things have gotten in the "land of the free."

[adigirl]

That's just stupid. I can understand a jump in the list but that is just nuts.

[Soundbear]

If I had a company where my manager told me there were only 16 problems, then one day the plant caught fire, and the next day he tells me there are 44,000 problems, I think I'd fire him.

Was it the next day??
C'mon guys, be fair.

[Soundbear]

I suppose.

But 16 to that huge number doesn't make a lot of sense, even if it took four years.

And the reasons for being on the list don't seem to make much sense either. These people are NOT all terrorists.

No, of course not. And I'm not arguing the fact that it's unfair. That's life though, in a world of terrorism.

You cannot have it both ways. Seems to me if something terrible happened, you'd jump all over the U.S. for not preventing it. Worse yet, you might say Bush even orchestrated it. On the other hand you criticize them for being too cautious.

I'd still rather live in either one of these two countries than anywhere else in the world. Even if my name were Muhammed.

[Return of Too Many Daves]

Yeah, because there was no terrorism before 9/11, or 11/9 as I prefer.

Compared to pre 9/11? very little.
As well, flying bombs had something to do with the no FLY list.
I don't think you'll find a no-train list. Or a No-Greyhound list.

[Soundbear]

How many aircraft hijackings have there been over american soil since 9/11?

Why??

[1337]

How many before?

I think the list is a good idea.

The reason why it went from 16 to 45,000, is because they added all the known terrorists and their affiliates. Possible threats.

There wasn't that many hijackings before 9/11, and the ones that did happen weren't a future threat.

The nature of the 9/11 hijackings leave the doors open for possible future threats.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How many aircraft hijackings have there been over american soil since 9/11?

Why?? </div></div>

Why?

I would say there is a little more vigilance now, by both the feds and the airlines.

[Hans]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, of course not. And I'm not arguing the fact that it's unfair. That's life though, in a world of terrorism.

You cannot have it both ways. Seems to me if something terrible happened, you'd jump all over the U.S. for not preventing it. Worse yet, you might say Bush even orchestrated it. On the other hand you criticize them for being too cautious.

I'd still rather live in either one of these two countries than anywhere else in the world. Even if my name were Muhammed.
</div></div>

There's not a world of terrorism. That whole idea of war on terrorism is all to often fluffed up by US media and US politicians.
Yes, the terrorists are aiming at US targets and coalition partners.
But that's about it, I have not seen to many terror acts going on anywhere else. Have you?

umm. No.
I guess that settles it then, huh?

[Hans]

Correct, it's a US versus Terrorist thing, not a world versus terrorists.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Correct, it's a US versus Terrorist thing, not a world versus terrorists. </div></div>


...because the U.S. is fighting the scourge of radical terrorism for the rest of the world.

I finished your thought, Hans.

[Soundbear]

I'm pretty sure the war is not Terrorists against the World.

Their targets only include a small number of countries.

right.., that's why Germany caught some terrorists the other daya..

[Hans]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/09/07/germany.terror/index.html

2 Germans and a Turk. Sounds like a joke, does it not?
As you can see, Germany thinks there's no imminent treat against the homeland. The US of course thinks they were out to end the world as we know it.


German authorities announced Wednesday they had arrested three men -- two Germans and one Turk -- as they started mixing a massive amount of explosive materials that could have resulted in a stronger explosion than the terror attacks in Madrid in 2004 and London in 2005.

"At this time, there is no credible information telling us of an imminent threat to the homeland, but we do believe that we continue to be in a period of increased risk," he said.

A U.S. counterterrorism official told CNN the the German terror plot was "the real deal," adding that U.S. authorities had been involved since the "earliest stages of the investigation."

[GenX]

So Hans is basically sayiong what's the big deal if they were only going to set off bombs that could kill ONLY 150 people or so?

Gotta' love that European compassion and sensibility.

Is now a good time to thank God for taking away world supremacy from a continent that is (was) wholly irresponsible with it?

[Hans]

What were their targets Speedy?

[GenX]

Human beings.

Granted, Europe didn't care too much that 6 million people of a certain race were extinguished between 1939 and 1944, or so it seemed they didn't much care...

...be that as it may, isn't it time for Europe to realize one life lost to apathy is too much?

[Hans]

No, what were their targets? Come on, you can do this.

[shadowjak]

The government of Canada has created its own no fly list as part of a program called Passenger Protect.The Canadian list incorporates data from domestic and foreign intelligence sources, including the US No Fly List.It contains between 500 and 2,000 names.

Guess what,Not all of the names are from innocent people.The list is there for security reasons and yes,false positives will be generated from time to time.But that is the price of security.

But of course you can always drop all of those expensive security measures,leave the skys wide open,no one really wants to attack the States or Canada now do they.
Terrorists dont run funding operations from Canada right???
Cough cough gaaaaag

Check out this list of wonderful organizations(snicker)You can even follow the links to their websites.
Dont all these groups just want world peace?
They are so misunderstood and oppressed right?

http://www.cromwell-intl.com/security/netusers/

Just imagine how you would feel if the subway in Toronto was bombed.Or they blew up some buses in Canadian Cities.
Of course then you could always blame it on Bush or the States and completely ignore the fact that some people really hate our way of life,and will stop at nothing to end it.

By the way the no fly list is made up by the FBI/FAA and the Transportation Security Administration,not the NSA

Here,Check out this site-if you dare.You know you want to.come on just one click

http://www.nsa.gov/

[The Berean]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Human beings.

Granted, Europe didn't care too much that 6 million people of a certain race were extinguished between 1939 and 1944, or so it seemed they didn't much care...

...be that as it may, isn't it time for Europe to realize one life lost to apathy is too much? </div></div>

And the USA did all it could to prevent this,accepting Jewish immigrants??? NOT.

[The Berean]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shadowjak</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The government of Canada has created its own no fly list as part of a program called Passenger Protect.The Canadian list incorporates data from domestic and foreign intelligence sources, including the US No Fly List.It contains between 500 and 2,000 names.

Guess what,Not all of the names are from innocent people.The list is there for security reasons and yes,false positives will be generated from time to time.But that is the price of security.

But of course you can always drop all of those expensive security measures,leave the skys wide open,no one really wants to attack the States or Canada now do they.
Terrorists dont run funding operations from Canada right???
Cough cough gaaaaag

Check out this list of wonderful organizations(snicker)You can even follow the links to their websites.
Dont all these groups just want world peace?
They are so misunderstood and oppressed right?

http://www.cromwell-intl.com/security/netusers/

Just imagine how you would feel if the subway in Toronto was bombed.Or they blew up some buses in Canadian Cities.
Of course then you could always blame it on Bush or the States and completely ignore the fact that some people really hate our way of life,and will stop at nothing to end it.

By the way the no fly list is made up by the FBI/FAA and the Transportation Security Administration,not the NSA

Here,Check out this site-if you dare.You know you want to.come on just one click

http://www.nsa.gov/
</div></div>

There is a price for security. Everyone recognizes that.

The problem is this:
Can the government justify each and every name on the lists?

Is there a mechanism to have a name reviewed?

Are there names on the list because those people merely excersied their right to disagree with the government?

I think theres a problem in each of the above areas.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The problem is this:
Can the government justify each and every name on the lists?
Is there a mechanism to have a name reviewed?
I think theres a problem in each of the above areas.
</div></div>

We use the imperfection of human systems as a reason to abolish capital punishment.

Are we going to use the same excuse as a reason to not have no-fly lists?

Do you realize that with all of our judges, technology and sophistication, we are still putting innocent people behind bars?

Do we abolish our justice system for that reason? No. We always seek to improve it.

You are all talking in generalities. Don't criticize the system. It's so cotton pickin' easy to be a critic. It's the height of mental laziness. It's Gerry Springer-ism. (You heard that term, first, here, on Soonet!) None of us knows anything about the system that puts people on a no fly list. What!? You have access to the CIA, FBI, & RCMP dossiers on these people?

You've got to..
1. Prove that someone does not belong on the no fly list.
2. Find ways of improving the system.

But right now, you all seem only interested in taking a whack at the U.S.

[KDawg]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The problem is this:
Can the government justify each and every name on the lists?
Is there a mechanism to have a name reviewed?
I think theres a problem in each of the above areas.
</div></div>

We use the imperfection of human systems as a reason to abolish capital punishment.

Are we going to use the same excuse as a reason to not have no-fly lists?</div></div>

I would say yes because it's a farce to make the idiot public feel like "something's been done" to ensure their safety. Canada has its own no-fly list too, but has Transport Canada shown it to be effective? I am not aware. Besides, any terrorist worth his salt won't be using his own name or ID anyway. It's the same as the gun registry fiasco -- Who registers their guns? Law-abiding citizens -- the criminals are the ones that remain off the registry.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Erroneous entries on the watch lists can only be removed by the law enforcement or intelligence agency that put the name on the list. </div></div>

Are all bets on the table?

link (http://www.wired.com/politics/security/news/2005/09/68974)

[Hans]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The problem is this:
Can the government justify each and every name on the lists?
Is there a mechanism to have a name reviewed?
I think theres a problem in each of the above areas.
</div></div>

We use the imperfection of human systems as a reason to abolish capital punishment.

Are we going to use the same excuse as a reason to not have no-fly lists?

Do you realize that with all of our judges, technology and sophistication, we are still putting innocent people behind bars?

Do we abolish our justice system for that reason? No. We always seek to improve it.

You are all talking in generalities. Don't criticize the system. It's so cotton pickin' easy to be a critic. It's the height of mental laziness. It's Gerry Springer-ism. (You heard that term, first, here, on Soonet!) None of us knows anything about the system that puts people on a no fly list. What!? You have access to the CIA, FBI, & RCMP dossiers on these people?

You've got to..
1. Prove that someone does not belong on the no fly list.
2. Find ways of improving the system.

But right now, you all seem only interested in taking a whack at the U.S. </div></div>

The US has taken a whack on itself. They already changed their passport requirements for Canadians. It shows that "business" prevails over security.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The problem is this:
Can the government justify each and every name on the lists?
Is there a mechanism to have a name reviewed?
I think theres a problem in each of the above areas.
</div></div>

We use the imperfection of human systems as a reason to abolish capital punishment.

Are we going to use the same excuse as a reason to not have no-fly lists?

Do you realize that with all of our judges, technology and sophistication, we are still putting innocent people behind bars?

Do we abolish our justice system for that reason? No. We always seek to improve it.

You are all talking in generalities. Don't criticize the system. It's so cotton pickin' easy to be a critic. It's the height of mental laziness. It's Gerry Springer-ism. (You heard that term, first, here, on Soonet!) None of us knows anything about the system that puts people on a no fly list. What!? You have access to the CIA, FBI, & RCMP dossiers on these people?

You've got to..
1. Prove that someone does not belong on the no fly list.
2. Find ways of improving the system.

But right now, you all seem only interested in taking a whack at the U.S. </div></div>

And you seem to be supporting them whatever happens. Edited to add Canadian stupidity.

Prove someone does not belong on the no-fly list??? Why don't you explain how to prove the negative in this instance. Keep in mind Arar, who was sent to Syria to be tortured, and remains on the list in the USA SO THEY CAN COVER THEIR SORRY BUTTS!!! And how can you get off a list when they won't even tell you why you are on it???

I suggested ways of improving the system. I dobt they'll come into place.

[Soundbear]

Just curious.
100,000 on the US list. 5000 on the Canadian.
Can most of those 100,000 fly Canadian?? Why??

[pylus]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Human beings.

</div></div>

Maybe, I would think it is just as likely they where aiming at some sort of infrastructure. But, I trust they wouldn't worry about any standing in their way if it was. They kinda can't, just like us.

Well, I'm still gonna go with my gut feeling that tells me that if the U.S. relaxes it's restrictions and let's something fall through the cracks, you guys would be hopping mad and would write volumes of posts decrying their stupidity for that as well. It's so easy to do... and it's great fun putting down Big Brother. Makes me feel bigger, somehow.

BTW, BM, I do not support everything the U.S. does. I was against the war from the start. I believe it was an unjust war. I think preemptive wars are seriously flawed. I too was very concerned when they didn't focus on Osama and Afghanistan and got diverted to Iraq.

But I always tend to hold my criticism in reserve. I do not feel like I have enough info at hand to be fair and balanced.

[Hans]

Then you will never be able to have any criticism, as you will never have enough info at hand to be fair and balanced.
Sometimes you have to let your voice heard in order to get change.

[1337]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I'm still gonna go with my gut feeling that tells me that if the U.S. relaxes it's restrictions and let's something fall through the cracks, you guys would be hopping mad and would write volumes of posts decrying their stupidity for that as well.</div></div>

I maybe be misunderstanding, are you saying that if the States back down, and something does happen, that we will blame the states?

If thats the case then I doubt it.

If they are too restrictive, most here will complain.
If they are to loose, and something happens, they will complain.

After all, this is the same crowd that believes that Bush may very well have orchestrated 9/11. They will believe anything, as long as it is anti-Bush.

Let me be quick to see that I am getting very anti-Bush, but for altogether different reasons.

I just don't care for cheap shots and shoddy superficial thinking.

[Hans]

I don't believe it was orchestrated. I do believe they will never go after Osama because of money and oil interests. They will just keep pretending they do.
I also believe certain individuals are being protected by the Saudies.