Jehovahs

[1337]

I sat in a bible session with jehovah witness, and I think they are more beleivable then anyother religion.

Knock me if you want. But i always beleive once you die, you die. No heaven or hell! That is what they beleive! LOL

[Larimar]

They do believe in heaven and hell, just not the same concept..

They believe only a certain number of people will get into Heaven on judgement day "144,000" to be exact.

[Macs II]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Knock me if you want. But i always beleive once you die, you die. No heaven or hell! That is what they beleive! LOL </div></div>

Your body dies but your soul lives .

[Batman]

Become A Jehovah's Witness and you can expect the following:

- You must attend 3-5 meetings a week.

- You must go door-to-door peddling magazines for a minimum of 5 hours a week up to 70 hours a month depending on how many pats on the back from the elders you need.

- You cannot date or marry anyone outside of the organization.

- You cannot celebrate Christmas, Easter, Birthdays, Thanksgiving and most other holidays that most of us enjoy.

- You will be shunned and kicked out if you are found smoking, engaging in any form of pre-marital sexual activity (includes kissing a non-JW or non-approved JW), if you disagree or question anything they teach or if you are lazy in your door-to-door work (you must fill out time cards with dates, times and addresses to show the elders on a monthly basis how much time you put in).

- Being kicked out means you will not go to heaven and you will be destroyed at Armageddon (which is currently supposedly coming somewhere around 2030 according to one report)

- If you are an active JW and have a JW employer and get kicked out, you will also lose your job.

- If your whole family is JW and you get kicked out, you will be rejected by your JW family and kicked out of the house if you are over 18.

- If you need a blood transfusion to save your life, you must refuse the transfusion and die for Jehovah in order to be saved at Armageddon. If you get the transfusion you will be kicked out of the organization and surely die with no hope (according to the Watchtower).

- If you are a parent and your child requires a blood transfusion, you are expected to deny the procedure which means Children's Aid will step in and will make sure your child gets the life saving procedure and you will lose custody of your child.

- If you are married and become a JW and your spouse refuses to join with you and is opposed to you joining, you will be expected and encouraged to divorce your spouse. If you don't you may risk being kicked out.

- If you attend any other church or are found celebrating any forbidden holidays (mentioned above) you will be kicked out.

- If your family rejects your choice to join the JWs, you are expected to reject them, unless of course you have elderly dying parents who need care in which case you are encouraged to care for them in order to secure your inheritance which can then go to the Watchtower.

- You will be forbidden to vote, join any sports groups or clubs at school, attend any friends birthday parties, and you are forbidden to stand for the National Anthem.

- If you are in high school you will be encouraged to seek out trade employment after high school and discouraged from any post-secondary college or University education. Higher education belongs to the devil, unless of course you want to be a lawyer for the Watchtower in which case they will put you through law school but you can only work for them and no one else.

- Married couples are discouraged from having children because the world is going to end soon. Having children would be a waste of time and you should be out 'witnessing' and saving the world before Armageddon and not wasting time raising children in 'this wicked system of things'.

Okay so who wants to join up?? Come on now, doesn't this sound like a good loving organization? Okay sorry for the sarcasm but any organization that does this to their members and calls itself 'Christian' is a cult in my book. The organization itself is corrupt and the members are victims.

Where do you get that JW's don't believe in heaven or hell, T-Pot? I think you are misinformed.

[spiritquilter]

Having been exposed to the doctrine of the JW's I tend to agree with Batman. However the rest of us can learn a thing or two from the JWs. Their morals and values are admirable. Don't agree with their teachings but do respect their morals and values and the fact they stick to them.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: crazyratlady</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having been exposed to the doctrine of the JW's I tend to agree with Batman. However the rest of us can learn a thing or two from the JWs. Their morals and values are admirable. Don't agree with their teachings but do respect their morals and values and the fact they stick to them. </div></div>

I suggest you search for sexual abuse in reference to the JW's if you think they are all that moral.

[Batman]

http://www.silentlambs.org

[Crusty]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: crazyratlady</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having been exposed to the doctrine of the JW's I tend to agree with Batman. However the rest of us can learn a thing or two from the JWs. Their morals and values are admirable. Don't agree with their teachings but do respect their morals and values and the fact they stick to them. </div></div>

I suggest you search for sexual abuse in reference to the JW's if you think they are all that moral. </div></div>


...last time I checked the Chistians were leading the league in sexual abuse ...

You may want to find a better slam than that one Barry.

[GRUMPY]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Batman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Become A Jehovah's Witness and you can expect the following:

- You must attend 3-5 meetings a week.

- You must go door-to-door peddling magazines for a minimum of 5 hours a week up to 70 hours a month depending on how many pats on the back from the elders you need.

- You cannot date or marry anyone outside of the organization.

- You cannot celebrate Christmas, Easter, Birthdays, Thanksgiving and most other holidays that most of us enjoy.

- You will be shunned and kicked out if you are found smoking, engaging in any form of pre-marital sexual activity (includes kissing a non-JW or non-approved JW), if you disagree or question anything they teach or if you are lazy in your door-to-door work (you must fill out time cards with dates, times and addresses to show the elders on a monthly basis how much time you put in).

- Being kicked out means you will not go to heaven and you will be destroyed at Armageddon (which is currently supposedly coming somewhere around 2030 according to one report)

- If you are an active JW and have a JW employer and get kicked out, you will also lose your job.

- If your whole family is JW and you get kicked out, you will be rejected by your JW family and kicked out of the house if you are over 18.

- If you need a blood transfusion to save your life, you must refuse the transfusion and die for Jehovah in order to be saved at Armageddon. If you get the transfusion you will be kicked out of the organization and surely die with no hope (according to the Watchtower).

- If you are a parent and your child requires a blood transfusion, you are expected to deny the procedure which means Children's Aid will step in and will make sure your child gets the life saving procedure and you will lose custody of your child.

- If you are married and become a JW and your spouse refuses to join with you and is opposed to you joining, you will be expected and encouraged to divorce your spouse. If you don't you may risk being kicked out.

- If you attend any other church or are found celebrating any forbidden holidays (mentioned above) you will be kicked out.

- If your family rejects your choice to join the JWs, you are expected to reject them, unless of course you have elderly dying parents who need care in which case you are encouraged to care for them in order to secure your inheritance which can then go to the Watchtower.

- You will be forbidden to vote, join any sports groups or clubs at school, attend any friends birthday parties, and you are forbidden to stand for the National Anthem.

- If you are in high school you will be encouraged to seek out trade employment after high school and discouraged from any post-secondary college or University education. Higher education belongs to the devil, unless of course you want to be a lawyer for the Watchtower in which case they will put you through law school but you can only work for them and no one else.

- Married couples are discouraged from having children because the world is going to end soon. Having children would be a waste of time and you should be out 'witnessing' and saving the world before Armageddon and not wasting time raising children in 'this wicked system of things'.

Okay so who wants to join up?? Come on now, doesn't this sound like a good loving organization? Okay sorry for the sarcasm but any organization that does this to their members and calls itself 'Christian' is a cult in my book. The organization itself is corrupt and the members are victims. </div></div>

You missed the big one there, you also have to offer up your kids to be diddled with.

[Crusty]

I thought that was manditory in every religion ... /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif



ok seriously ....

[starterwiz]

They do have some good qualities:
Women must be subserviant and obedient to their husbands.
If a family member becomes mentally ill, and gets kicked out, then everyone is expected to shun him....and when he suicides from lack of loving support, you won't even need to attend the funeral.
And when JW's die, the graves are 12 ft deep....'cause deep down, they're good people. ('K, I made that last one up!)

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And when JW's die, the graves are 12 ft deep....'cause deep down, they're good people. </div></div> /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif

[GRUMPY]

I honestly don't give a hoot what they do as long as they aren't rapping on my door on Saturday mornings.

[MaO3]

I found Batman's post quite interesting. Mind if I ask where the list came from?

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Crusty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...last time I checked the Chistians were leading the league in sexual abuse ...

You may want to find a better slam than that one Barry. </div></div>

Ya know, what with the media doing it's best to diss Christians, and you using that as your only source, Its pretty obvious to me that you are just being mislead. I'm not particularly concerned.

Knowing as I do dozens of people from many churches, and pastors of them on a first name basis, I'm pretty sure that those type of "people" problems are no where near as high as some would LIKE to think. Not totally absent, as I can testify from being in an up close leadership position to know, but pretty rare.

Reminds me of marriage stats, one in two failing, and yet just not seeing a tenth of that level of problems.

Take it or leave it. BTW, JW's ain't Christians. Or Protestants. They're a cult.

[1337]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Batman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Become A Jehovah's Witness and you can expect the following:

- You must attend 3-5 meetings a week.
Confirmed Balogna

- You must go door-to-door peddling magazines for a minimum of 5 hours a week up to 70 hours a month depending on how many pats on the back from the elders you need.
Confirmed Balogna


- You cannot date or marry anyone outside of the organization.

- You cannot celebrate Christmas, Easter, Birthdays, Thanksgiving and most other holidays that most of us enjoy.

Capitalist holidays that soak your money!

- You will be shunned and kicked out if you are found smoking, engaging in any form of pre-marital sexual activity (includes kissing a non-JW or non-approved JW), if you disagree or question anything they teach or if you are lazy in your door-to-door work (you must fill out time cards with dates, times and addresses to show the elders on a monthly basis how much time you put in).

Confirmed Balogna

- Being kicked out means you will not go to heaven and you will be destroyed at Armageddon (which is currently supposedly coming somewhere around 2030 according to one report)

Confirmed Balogna

Was told by them that there is no heaven or hell. Jehovah God punished men by death, returns to ashes. There is no heaven or no hell, why would such a loving god banish someone to firey hell? Would you hold a kids hands over a stove if they have done wrong? As for heaven, why would there be such a great gift such as heaven, when Jehovah is going to banish all evil and make the world perfect?

- If you are an active JW and have a JW employer and get kicked out, you will also lose your job.

Don't have JW Employer

- If your whole family is JW and you get kicked out, you will be rejected by your JW family and kicked out of the house if you are over 18.

I own my own house I make the rules /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

- If you need a blood transfusion to save your life, you must refuse the transfusion and die for Jehovah in order to be saved at Armageddon. If you get the transfusion you will be kicked out of the organization and surely die with no hope (according to the Watchtower).

Confirmed Balogna

We die anyway untill the day of ransom, Our blood was given to us, it is our life line. To deplete your self of your lifeline shows your disrespect for yourself and Jehovahs creation.

- If you are a parent and your child requires a blood transfusion, you are expected to deny the procedure which means Children's Aid will step in and will make sure your child gets the life saving procedure and you will lose custody of your child.

CAS Can not override your religion.

- If you are married and become a JW and your spouse refuses to join with you and is opposed to you joining, you will be expected and encouraged to divorce your spouse. If you don't you may risk being kicked out.

I don't think that is a bad thing.

- If you attend any other church or are found celebrating any forbidden holidays (mentioned above) you will be kicked out.

All churches are wrong.

- If your family rejects your choice to join the JWs, you are expected to reject them, unless of course you have elderly dying parents who need care in which case you are encouraged to care for them in order to secure your inheritance which can then go to the Watchtower.

Yet again, i doubt this is bad

- You will be forbidden to vote, join any sports groups or clubs at school, attend any friends birthday parties, and you are forbidden to stand for the National Anthem.

Confirmed Balogna

- If you are in high school you will be encouraged to seek out trade employment after high school and discouraged from any post-secondary college or University education. Higher education belongs to the devil, unless of course you want to be a lawyer for the Watchtower in which case they will put you through law school but you can only work for them and no one else.

Confirmed Balogna The JW's that explained that are college grads, and I work with one.

- Married couples are discouraged from having children because the world is going to end soon. Having children would be a waste of time and you should be out 'witnessing' and saving the world before Armageddon and not wasting time raising children in 'this wicked system of things'.

Confirmed Balogna THey were excited that they found out we were trying, the guy I work with just got pregnant.

Okay so who wants to join up?? Come on now, doesn't this sound like a good loving organization? Okay sorry for the sarcasm but any organization that does this to their members and calls itself 'Christian' is a cult in my book. The organization itself is corrupt and the members are victims. </div></div>


I just said that I sat in a sitting, not wanting to join. I just shared some of their views. You pointed our yours that I confirmed as wrong.

Maybe the nazi JW's you were thinking of.

[Soundbear]

T-pot, sound like yer getting sucked in.

I wonder if they would, just maybe, shade the truth as little??

What did they say about the "silent lambs" website and info???

[Soundbear]

P.S. All churches are not wrong, all churches have error. There's a difference.

[Crusty]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Crusty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...last time I checked the Chistians were leading the league in sexual abuse ...

You may want to find a better slam than that one Barry. </div></div>

Ya know, what with the media doing it's best to diss Christians, and you using that as your only source, Its pretty obvious to me that you are just being mislead. I'm not particularly concerned.

Knowing as I do dozens of people from many churches, and pastors of them on a first name basis, I'm pretty sure that those type of "people" problems are no where near as high as some would LIKE to think. Not totally absent, as I can testify from being in an up close leadership position to know, but pretty rare.

Reminds me of marriage stats, one in two failing, and yet just not seeing a tenth of that level of problems.

Take it or leave it. BTW, JW's ain't Christians. Or Protestants. They're a cult. </div></div>


I'm not being mislead. If it's on the internet it must be true.

I'm one of the many sheeple who belive this ....

[Soundbear]

Ah, I see.

Too bad.

Ya know, I don't even believe Christian sources half the time.

"Confirmed Balogna" is not an argument.

Sources please.

And maybe Batman can post sources for his info.

[1337]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">P.S. All churches are not wrong, all churches have error. There's a difference.

</div></div>

You beleive in a god and a religion, I beleive in churches being wrong /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

We're even.

Trust me i'm not getting sucked in, I am not attending any churches no sessions or what not. It's actually my wife that sits in the weekly session, only because it's from a guy at works wife who does the teaching.

I just sat in, to throw in a few words

[1337]

Aydeloaf, they were my sources. I repeated the questions, confirmed as being correct or incorrect.

And if your wife converts, then one day, if you do not convert, you may lose her. Warning bells are sounding.
Trust me. You have NO IDEA what you are getting into.

AND if your source is just someone elses word, well..
I think I will wait for Batman's response.

In the news today, from South Africa:
Lawyers acting for a Durban hospital and paediatric surgeon made a mercy dash to the High Court this week, securing a court order allowing them to give a critically ill two-year-old girl a blood transfusion in the face of staunch opposition from her Jehovah's Witness parents.

REad the whole story by following the link.
http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ReligionNewsBlog/~3/159036720/jehovah-s-witnesses-22

T-Pot, why don't you bring what you are being taught in these discussions to the forum, and we'll compare them with the Bible..

[Soundbear]

Excellent idea, Ayedeloof. We can all learn something.

Tpot, I understand JW's don't like to pray for divine guinace as they study the bible. Is this true, from what you are seeing??

And BTW, you said, "You beleive in a god and a religion"... No I don't. I believe in GOD, the one and only omnipotent Almighty, AND a RELATIONSHIP with Him!!! Religion and its rules are man made.

[Batman]

Okay, I listed a lot of what we'll call 'allegations' against the Watchtower without backing them up. I can back them up however even though the list came off the top of my head from personal experience and only the past 20 years or so studying and researching this group.

So without backing up all of the points on the list at once, why don't we tackle one at a time. Someone, anyone, pick one of the points on my list and I'll respond to it.

Now just to be fair, I should tell you that I have never been a Jehovah's Witness but I have family members who are. I've also appeared on Vision TV and City TV on the subject and have a very large library of original Watchtower books and books written by former members. And that's no 'Oscar Mayer'! :-)

[xXx Duffy xXx]

You people are pathetic. You know NOTHING of the religion. Your opinions and views not only disgust me, but are so far from the truth, it's almost painful. I was a Jehovah's Witness for almost 15 years.

You want to know anything .... ask me /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

haha .... a cult? You dont go to heaven if you do something wrong lol. Oh jeeze.

[Batman]

Troll alert
http://www.flayme.com/troll/

[Andre]

old school
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f308/Andrjohson/Trolling_1.jpg

[junker]

Tormented... You were a JW for 15 years? Howcome you got out if you could have been one of the said 144,000 on "D Day"?

[xXx Duffy xXx]

Negative. They are already pre determined. The remainder of them are apparently ( I say this because I dropped the faith. I dont have a religion due to the complictions in life it causes ) going to be living an eternity on earth here, however perfect and revamped. This waorld was once perfect as most bibles state. It will return to that state, and the people will live forever in solitude.

Sonds absurd, but so does going to heaven and playing ping pong with god

[xXx Duffy xXx]

If one person in the marriage decides they do not want to be a beleiver .... they dont tell the other person to DIVORCE them you tool. It's meerly a personal preference.

Look at all the bullcrap rules in Christianity. Oh wait ... you have hardly any. Try this one on for size.

In the bible it states ....

Corinthians 6: 9 - 11.

"Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."

Drunkards. Most people now a days are alcoholics.

Men who lie with men. Homosexuality, although in my opinion ... is fine. You do what youw ant with your body.... is wrong, MANY christians are gay. Women and men alike. Even some I know. Some you all know .... are gay. Yet ALSO ... Christian. Odd no?

You see .... you cant bash a religion when yours is flawed too. You dont agree with the beleifs. Nor do I. Hence why I left.

In East india, some religions stipulate you can have multiple wives. In north America is ACTUALLY against the law, let alone against a religion.

Matthew 7: 3 Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye?

Be logical

[GenX]

I know a girl that looks just like your avatar, TS.

Who is that?

[1337]

Probably the girl who put the restraining order on you Speedy.

That should've been a pm, instead of garabge clouding my thread.

[GenX]

I'm pretty sure PM or not, garbage will still be a huge part of your head.

[Batman]

My apologies. When you first posted I suspected that you knew nothing about the Watchtower and were just trying to stir things up. Well now it appears you do know something about the Watchtower and you are stirring things up not just trying! :-)

You are correct about the 144,000 going to heaven and the rest stay on a 'paradise earth.' I just refered to a generic 'heaven' meaning 'saved' at Armageddon. The Watchtower has two salvations. Heaven is reserved for 144,000 and the earth is reserved for all other faithful JWs. Although the 144,000 number should be revised since a number of the original members of that group have either left the Watchtower on their own or been disfellowshipped and replaced. Some who have already died as members have even been replaced by new members. The remaining members (about 1500 roughly) are aging.

I am not surprised that you reject all religions since that is what most former JWs do. I am surprised however by you defending the Watchtower. Most former members do not.

Now your use of the Corinthian passage is misunderstood. Read the last part of that, "And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God." That speaks of the forgiveness for sin that is found is Christ. We are now under grace and not under the law which basically means that if we truly have a relationship with Christ, we are forgiven the aforementioned sins and will not want to continue in them.

Now, having said that, it is true that are those who call themselves Christians who are alcoholics and homosexuals. If they truly are born again Christians, these lifestyles will be struggles for them and they may continue in them only because of lack of understanding and/or support.

Now as far as your use of the Matthew passage goes, active JWs are not my brothers. They believe in a 'different Jesus' and a 'different gospel' and the Watchtower is a dangerous cult not just an 'alternative religion'.

I don't know if you are part of any ex-JW forums or not but if not, you may like to check out http://b26.ezboard.com/bexjehovahswitnessforum

I've only skimmed through it so I don't know anything about who set it up but it appears to be non-religious or at least non-denominational and there are more non-religious discussions than anything else from what I can tell. I have never participated in it and have only heard mention of it from some ex-JW friends that I have.

If you are already participating in it then can you give us an idea of whether it is a good place for ex-JWs to go to or not?

Lastly, please don't call me a tool! My JW sister does that and I hate it! ;-)

[xXx Duffy xXx]

lol. Well then ! Ther's only one JW site that i know of.

[starterwiz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know a girl that looks just like your avatar, TS.

Who is that? </div></div>

The one that said "Not if you were the last man on earth!"?

[1337]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm pretty sure PM or not, garbage will still be a huge part of your head. </div></div>


I get it, just like your country. Filled with propaganda and garbage.

And a leader with a 6th grade vocabulary.

[Soundbear]

T-pot, when JW's come to my door, I always refuse to discuss their pet topic of the day and ask them to tell me about Jesus Christ. The bible teaches He is GOD. They do not.

They don't come back. I think they use a list, since I have seen them vist the neighbors and pass my place by.

Just one of many interesting sites about the "teaching" of the sadly misnamed Jehovah's Witnesses.

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/j01.html

What Greek Scholars Think of the New World Translation

This collection of quotes, found on many Christian Bulletin Boards, primarily addresses the Jehovah Witnesses mistranslation of John 1:1


Dr. J. R. Mantey (who is quoted on pages 1158-1159) of the Witnesses own Kingdom interlinear Translation):


"A shocking mistranslation." "Obsolete and incorrect." "It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 'The Word was a god.'"
Dr. Bruce M. Metzger of Princeton (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature):


"A frightful mistranslation." "Erroneous" and "pernicious" "reprehensible" "If the Jehovah's Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists."
Dr. Samuel J. Mikolaski of Zurich, Switzerland:


"This anarthrous (used without the article) construction does not mean what the indefinite article 'a' means in English. It is monstrous to translate the phrase 'the Word was a god.'"
Dr. Paul L. Kaufman of Portland, Oregon:


"The Jehovah's Witnesses people evidence an abysmal ignorance of the basic tenets of Greek grammar in their mistranslation of John 1:1."
Dr. Charles L. Feinberg of La Mirada, California:


"I can assure you that the rendering which the Jehovah's Witnesses give John 1:1 is not held by any reputable Greek scholar."
Dr. James L. Boyer of Winona Lake, Indiana:


"I have never heard of, or read of any Greek Scholar who would have agreed to the interpretation of this verse insisted upon by the Jehovah's Witnesses...I have never encountered one of them who had any knowledge of the Greek language."
Dr. Walter R. Martin (who did not teach Greek but has studied the language):


"The translation...'a god' instead of 'God' is erroneous and unsupported by any good Greek scholarship, ancient or contemporary and is a translation rejected by all recognized scholars of the Greek language may of whom are not even Christians, and cannot fairly be said to be biased in favor of the orthodox contention."
Dr. William Barclay of the University of Glasgow, Scotland:


"The deliberate distortion of truth by this sect is seen in their New testament translations. John 1:1 is translated: '...the Word was a god,' a translation which is grammatically impossible...It is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest."
Dr. F. F. Bruce of the University of Manchester, England:


"Much is made by Arian amateur grammarians of the omission of the definite article with 'God' in the phrase 'And the Word was God.' Such an omission is common with nouns in a predicative construction...'a god' would be totally indefensible." [Barclay and Bruce are generally regarded as Great Britain's leading Greek scholars. Both have New Testament translations in print!]
Dr. Ernest C. Colwell of the University of Chicago:


"A definite predicate nominative has the article when it follows the verb; it does not have the article when it precedes the verb...this statement cannot be regarded as strange in the prologue of the gospel which reaches its climax in the confession of Thomas. 'My Lord and my God.' - John 20:28"
Dr. Phillip B. Harner of Heidelberg College:


"The verb preceding an anarthrous predicate, would probably mean that the LOGOS was 'a god' or a divine being of some kind, belonging to the general category of THEOS but as a distinct being from HO THEOS. In the form that John actually uses, the word "THEOS" is places at the beginning for emphasis."
Dr. J. Johnson of California State University, Long Beach:


"No justification whatsoever for translating THEOS EN HO LOGOS as 'the Word was a god.' There is no syntactical parallel to Acts 28:6 where there is a statement in indirect discourse; John 1:1 is direct....I am neither a Christian nor a trinitarian."
Dr. Eugene A. Nida, head of Translations Department, American Bible Society:


"With regard to John 1:1, there is of course a complication simply because the New World Translation was apparently done by persons who did not take seriously the syntax of the Greek." [Responsible for the Good News Bible - The committee worked under him.]
Dr. B. F. Wescott (whose Greek text - not the English part - is used in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation):


"The predicate (God) stands emphatically first, as in IV.24. It is necessarily without the article...No idea of inferiority of nature is suggested by the form of expression, which simply affirms the true deity of the Word...in the third clause 'the Word' is declared to be 'God' and so included in the unity of the Godhead."
Dr. J. J. Griesbach (whose Greek text - not the English part - is used in the Emphatic Diaglott):


"So numerous and clear are the arguments and testimonies of Scriptures in favour of the true Deity of Christ, that I can hardly imagine how, upon the admission of the Divine authority of Scripture, and with regard to fair rules of interpretation, this doctrine can by any man be called in doubt. Especially the passage, John 1:1-3, is so clear and so superior to all exception, that by no daring efforts of either commentators or critics can it be snatched out of the hands of the defenders of the truth."

[xXx Duffy xXx]

I love misconstrued factoids, and complete horse [censored] people bleive /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

[Larimar]

"The bible teaches He is GOD. They do not."
I dont personally believe Jesus and God are the same entity-In the sense that I'd call him God but I do believe we all are made from pieces of God and therefore all sons and daughters of God-Jesus must know this and therefore be able to say he is on ein the same-b.c we all come from one source. I am probably alone here on that one, but I just feel Jesus was the Son(product of God), and not God the creator.
just my humble opinion. I also don't think all Christian sects teach that he is God though anyways...

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tormented Soul</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love misconstrued factoids, and complete horse [censored] people bleive /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif </div></div>

If you believe in the religion and what they teach, defend it. If you don't, the manure is strictly travelling one way, and I got a BIG shovel!!

A real JW wouldn't stay here, his elders probably would tell him to stay away, so he wouldn't get "tainted" or something.

I notice when I argue with them, it's always the older one dragging the younger away, and NEVER COMING BACK!!

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DreamSpirit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The bible teaches He is GOD. They do not."
I dont personally believe Jesus and God are the same entity-In the sense that I'd call him God but I do believe we all are made from pieces of God and therefore all sons and daughters of God-Jesus must know this and therefore be able to say he is on ein the same-b.c we all come from one source. I am probably alone here on that one, but I just feel Jesus was the Son(product of God), and not God the creator.
just my humble opinion. I also don't think all Christian sects teach that he is God though anyways... </div></div>

The bible is full of references of Christ as GOD. Since you don't believe the bible, the actual source of this truth, further discussion is fruitless.

[Larimar]

"The bible is full of references of Christ as GOD. Since you don't believe the bible, the actual source of this truth, further discussion is fruitless. "
You actually have no clue what I believe, nothing is black and white-and there's different interps people get from passages. I know when I went to St. Basils high school they did not teach us that Jesus was God-They denied that claim and taught that he was the Son of God.
You cannnot dismiss people merely b.c they have different views.
Ignore me if you must, but I'm allowed to discuss things here with those who choose to listen. I for one, love hearing other peoples points of view, it's how learning occures. I'm not closed minded /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
I also was not looking to debate-Only expressing my own thoughts, so it matters not that you think trying to prove me wrong is fruitless-Not my intention.
Anyhow, I do enjoy discussions /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif So if anyone else does, please feel free to speak with me /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif hehe

[Soundbear]

"..nothing is black and white.."

"..I'm not closed minded..."

Today's chuckle, sorry.

Not looking to debate. Fine by me.

BTW, There's a big difference betwenn dismissing people and disagreeing with them. Forgive me for thinking you are a greater offender in dismissing, since you won't stay to defend what you "preach".

P.S. "they did not teach us that Jesus was God.."

Yes they did, you just missed it.

[Soundbear]

Curious DS, you mentioned homework on another thread. Are you a student???

[Larimar]

How is being open minded laughable? and No, nothing is black and white when it comes to what people believe in-You think you have me pegged as a none believer, that's fine by me-But your assumptions would be sorely way off base.
If you merely disagreed , just say so-Why add discussion with me is fruitless? As though I sit there insulting people for what they believe in, or pulling people down. I am more likely to listen and discuss your key points then I am to bash them. That is why I'm open minded. I may disagree and offer what I feel something means, but that's why we have a diverse world. I see no harm in that.
Maybe you do?


and btw- no they did not. We asked the Priest point blank if he believed Jesus was God, he said no-The Son of God..The teachers taught us the same..So I am under the understanding that not all Christians believe he was. St Paul himself certaintly made a huge distinction between the Lord Jesus and the Lord God... so I do believe that there's differences in beliefs. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif You may not, and i'm okay with that.

[Larimar]

Yes, I am a student at a university. My belief though, is that we should never stop learning. I'll always be a student of life if not of school.

[Soundbear]

I assume that a Catholic school is NOT going to teach that Christ is NOT GOD, since Roman Catholics clearly believe that He is.

I think that's a reasonable assumption. Someone is in error.

I see harm in people thinking that nothing is black and white. Morals fly out the window all too often.

Goodnight.

[Larimar]

No I believe in an ultimate truth. I believe though, that peoples personal beliefs are not black and white, and that's what I was getting at. That you may hear of Christians all believing one thing whereas they are individual people who may not believe all the same things even though from the same religion.So you may have had me pegged as a non believer in the whole bible, but I just have a different outlook on it-It doesn't mean I don't take the quotes and scripture into account. I hope that helps you understand somewhat better what I meant. I do believe that morals are either Right or Wrong-I'm a complete hmm what would you call it? Follower? admirer of Socrates who believed that one truth is obtainable..So something is either right or wrong, whether we know it or not.

[starterwiz]

All joking aside (thought that was the intent from the first post) I think that the JWs have it partly right.
Spreading the word of God can't ever be wrong. Good and bad publicity both work equally well.
And trying to live in a "good" way, is honorable as well. As is the the intent of the rule for wives to answer to their husbands, when their husbands answer to God.
I do think that they've taken it too such an extreme that they've lost sight of the original reason. As have most religions.

I don't get it when someone says "My religion is "chosen". God might choose you, but I don't think He ever chose a religion. I do know that He's talked to lot's of people, with different languages and philosophies, at various times. And the message is usually the same.
Everyone is "chosen", not everyone chooses Him.

Anyone that devotes some of their life to God's work, is OK by me, and even 'tho I made Speedy laugh, I apologise for the earlier joke.

[Larimar]

"Everyone is "chosen", not everyone chooses Him."
Good quote /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[1337]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DreamSpirit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The bible teaches He is GOD. They do not."
I dont personally believe Jesus and God are the same entity-In the sense that I'd call him God but I do believe we all are made from pieces of God and therefore all sons and daughters of God-Jesus must know this and therefore be able to say he is on ein the same-b.c we all come from one source. I am probably alone here on that one, but I just feel Jesus was the Son(product of God), and not God the creator.
just my humble opinion. I also don't think all Christian sects teach that he is God though anyways... </div></div>

The bible is full of references of Christ as GOD. Since you don't believe the bible, the actual source of this truth, further discussion is fruitless.</div></div>

I thought that was referring to "Christ was made in the image of God"

[starterwiz]

DS, I agree that things are either black or white. Sometimes you have to work to get past all the shades of gray. And sometimes it turns out that there IS only gray.

[Larimar]

"I thought that was referring to "Christ was made in the image of God" "

Humans were.
My beliefs have always been that Nothing can come from Nothing, but that there never was Nothing-There was God..and so all this we have here is a product of God- Jesus knows this, and therefore can be one in the same-as I believe we all are to some degree a piece of Gods love. Though, I don't believe we "are" God..Just that we come from him..That's just my way of thinking, I quite enjoy Jesus' teachings regardless-and whether people believe me or not- I have wonderful Dreams of him giving me teachings. So regardless if he's God or not I have respect for him.

[starterwiz]

I like to think of it in terms of being in a house, with the only view of the world through a window, looking out. Some get to look out the back window, instead of the front, but no-one gets to see it all.

[Larimar]

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Good analogy.

DS, your beliefs are often based on your intuition and a composite of your own conclusions.

If you study the history of Christian doctrine, you will discover that nothing is quite as central as the belief that Jesus is God.
Those who have denied that Jesus is God have always been the splinter groups, and they've never lasted.

I have no knowledge of St Basil's, but if in reality they denied that doctrine, they would have been in serious heresy and would have been in big trouble with their superiors, I am quite sure.

I realize you have your beliefs and opinions, but when you try to represent what Paul taught in his writings, you are hugely mistaken.

Although Paul made a distinction between the Father and the Son, he frequently referred to Jesus as God.

You see, when it comes to the Trinity, it has always been held that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all equally God, yet they are distinct as Persons, i.e. the Father is not the Son, or the Spirit, the Son is not the Father or the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father of the Son. This is the part that the JW's have a hard time with.

There is doctrine in the Bible that is essential to Christianity. Deny or remove those essential teachings, and you have something other than Christianity. That is why one of the reasons why JW's are regarded as a cult from Christianity's point of view. The doctrine that represents Jesus as God is an essential doctrine. It has always been that way universally. Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox all agree on that point.

The resurrection is another essential doctrine. Take that away, and all you have left is just another religion. Christianity, in fact, is the only religion I know that is based on a person, and not a teaching about a person. Take the person away, or 'alter' him, and you change the essence of the faith.

If you want me to show you references dealing with the Deity of Christ, let me know. I'd be happy to do that. Although Batman is capable of doing that as well.

[Larimar]

I always respect others peoples right to their own beliefs, but I just don't believe Jesus is God-For many reasons, and reading quotes by St, Paul I see he always references God and then Jesus-If they were one in the same why go to the trouble of naming him twice? That is something you could possibly help me understand, and why Jesus would pray to himself and ask God why he forsake him, if they are one in the same-Unless it is truely as I believe, just a lable given to show that Jesus came from God-(as we do from our parents, and is a product of God) Just like I'm not truly my mom and dad, but I am definitely both my mom and my dad in traits and personalities.
That being asked, I never said I didn't believe Christians believed it-Just that some people do not. I respect both sides-Just as I respect Hindus who believe Krishna was God walking in the flesh..
but you are quite welcome to explain your beliefs to me in greater detail-I have no problem aquiring knowledge if you have no problem hearing questions.

[Larimar]

But if those want me to prove my point-I'm ready and willing-
I'll start here

“For us there is but one God, the Father . . . and one Lord, Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 8:6).

also see (see Matthew 26:39).


Sometimes my old high school taught Jesus was both Human and Divine, but not solely divine-as God is.. So they may have been having the same belief as you-Just wording it differently.

please note that i'm asking out of respect for knowledge and I want to learn, I'm not looking to be converted, or to be insulted though-So anyone willing to answer with -Kindness-Please feel free.

[starterwiz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DreamSpirit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Sometimes my old high school taught Jesus was both Human and Divine, but not solely divine-as God is.. So they may have been having the same belief as you-Just wording it differently.
</div></div>

Looking out the back window maybe?

[Larimar]

Please explain in more detail.

[starterwiz]

I grew up in a "religious" house, although I never really perceived it as such. There was never much mention about religion; just things that were "expected", but only insofar as any dad's job would entail.
My father was a "country parson", and yet even though he was extremely well respected, and liked, he could never really explain what was going on. It's not that he didn't know...he knew for sure. It's just that it's so far beyond words, that it's not possible to give much more than a clue. At least with the limited sense and perception that we are blessed to have.
He was one of the smartest men I've ever met, and yet he couldn't say for sure what was real. He was a realist, and would only offer the simple truths that he knew for sure.
I gave him a copy of Conversations with God, and at our next visit, he commented that the word around the diocese was that even though the book was considered blasphemous by some, it held a great deal of truth.
This was his opinion, formed by his superiors, and "allowed" to be spread upon the masses. He would never have said it if he had been encouraged to dismiss it. He took his job seriously.

So...does that mean that it's a valid work, or perhaps the word of God? Or is it just a sideways glance out of the wrong window?

[msmiths]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Batman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Become A Jehovah's Witness and you can expect the following:

- You must attend 3-5 meetings a week.

- You must go door-to-door peddling magazines for a minimum of 5 hours a week up to 70 hours a month depending on how many pats on the back from the elders you need.

- You cannot date or marry anyone outside of the organization.

- You cannot celebrate Christmas, Easter, Birthdays, Thanksgiving and most other holidays that most of us enjoy.

- You will be shunned and kicked out if you are found smoking, engaging in any form of pre-marital sexual activity (includes kissing a non-JW or non-approved JW), if you disagree or question anything they teach or if you are lazy in your door-to-door work (you must fill out time cards with dates, times and addresses to show the elders on a monthly basis how much time you put in).

- Being kicked out means you will not go to heaven and you will be destroyed at Armageddon (which is currently supposedly coming somewhere around 2030 according to one report)

- If you are an active JW and have a JW employer and get kicked out, you will also lose your job.

- If your whole family is JW and you get kicked out, you will be rejected by your JW family and kicked out of the house if you are over 18.

- If you need a blood transfusion to save your life, you must refuse the transfusion and die for Jehovah in order to be saved at Armageddon. If you get the transfusion you will be kicked out of the organization and surely die with no hope (according to the Watchtower).

- If you are a parent and your child requires a blood transfusion, you are expected to deny the procedure which means Children's Aid will step in and will make sure your child gets the life saving procedure and you will lose custody of your child.

- If you are married and become a JW and your spouse refuses to join with you and is opposed to you joining, you will be expected and encouraged to divorce your spouse. If you don't you may risk being kicked out.

- If you attend any other church or are found celebrating any forbidden holidays (mentioned above) you will be kicked out.

- If your family rejects your choice to join the JWs, you are expected to reject them, unless of course you have elderly dying parents who need care in which case you are encouraged to care for them in order to secure your inheritance which can then go to the Watchtower.

- You will be forbidden to vote, join any sports groups or clubs at school, attend any friends birthday parties, and you are forbidden to stand for the National Anthem.

- If you are in high school you will be encouraged to seek out trade employment after high school and discouraged from any post-secondary college or University education. Higher education belongs to the devil, unless of course you want to be a lawyer for the Watchtower in which case they will put you through law school but you can only work for them and no one else.

- Married couples are discouraged from having children because the world is going to end soon. Having children would be a waste of time and you should be out 'witnessing' and saving the world before Armageddon and not wasting time raising children in 'this wicked system of things'.

Okay so who wants to join up?? Come on now, doesn't this sound like a good loving organization? Okay sorry for the sarcasm but any organization that does this to their members and calls itself 'Christian' is a cult in my book. The organization itself is corrupt and the members are victims. </div></div>

I just got into this post, been away all summer

I was raised a witness until I was a teenager

my mother was the devoted witness my father was not,
it was not requested of her to divorce him

to this day I have family that are witness's and they are producing babies

they only attend meetings once a week

my cousin just last year married someone outside the faith
they just had thier first child

both the outsider and the child have been made welcome to the kingdom hall

I myself due to business could not care less re the holidays some people find so rewarding
but will take time to celebrate as I have kids that do care about santa and the easterbunny

as some family members I do have in the faith/divided by marriage will also do

as far as smoking or pre marital sex
let he who cast the first stone speak out

i do think misinformation and hypocrisy speaks loud and clear in all religions.

as a result I can only maintain

be good to others regardless of race or religion and respect the differances of all others

best regards

Okay, DS.. let me explain..

It DOES seem to matter to you what the Bible actually means.

And when it comes to interpretation, I do not take the mystical approach. My underlying interpretive principle is to understand the author's intent and I also go with the literal meaning unless the context indicates otherwise.

You asked:
"why Jesus would pray to himself and ask God why he forsake him, if they are one in the same."

Imagine a family. John Smith, Mary Smith and Little John Smith.

All three, equally Smith, but each one distinct.

It's not a perfect analogy but let it serve the prupose for now.

The Bible teaches that Jesus existed before He became a man. In fact, it teaches that 'all things were created by Him and for Him.'

But he did not become a human until that the event of the birth of the SOn in Bethlehem; we call this the incarnation.

And Paul talks about the incarnation this way:
Phil.2

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

So when Jesus became a man, he laid aside his privileges as God and became a dependent human being, like the rest of us.

So when HE was praying, he was talking to his Father, like any son might talk to his father. It's not that He experienced Himself as being in two places at once, both on earth in the garden AND in heaven where he heard His own prayer.

But don't overlook the fact that Paul said,
who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

So Jesus did not just have a god-like nature; He was (is) the same nature and essence as God. Ergo, He IS God, the Son.

So Paul can refer to Father and the Son as separate and distinct persons, yet see them as ONE GOD.


There is much more.

[Batman]

In reply to MLSSVCS,

MLSSVCS wrote:
------------------------
I was raised a witness until I was a teenager

Why did you leave?

my mother was the devoted witness my father was not,
it was not requested of her to divorce him

She would not have been advised to do this unless your father was an 'opposer' meaning he did not allow her to attend meetings or allow elder visits to their home and threw out Watchtower literature, that sort of thing. The Watchtower is very tolerant of spouses who mind their own business and leave them alone.

to this day I have family that are witness's and they are producing babies

The Watchtower does not disfellowship members for having babies but does advise against them, especially when they are getting close to another date set by the Watchtower for Armageddon. They have predicted the end of the world in print at least five times, the last date in print being 1975. They have since learned or 'gained new light' that it's not a good idea to print these dates. They now stick to only predicting dates in meetings verbally. That way when the date fails they can easily deny ever making the claim with nothing in print to prove it.

they only attend meetings once a week

There is only one meeting a week that they invite outsiders to. You would be considered an outsider so you would only be told of and invited to that one meeting a week. Also, if your cousin is not a 'baptised' witness then he or she would not be required to attend any meetings at all.

my cousin just last year married someone outside the faith
they just had thier first child

both the outsider and the child have been made welcome to the kingdom
hall

Of course they are. The Watchtower needs all the members it can get. Children are never rejected unless they have a blood transfusion. And, I'm guessing that your cousin is not a baptised witness so the general laws of the society do not apply to him or her.

I myself due to business could not care less re the holidays some people
find so rewarding but will take time to celebrate as I have kids that do care
about santa and the easterbunny

So how did you feel as a child when other kids at school and in your nieghborhood were celebrating birthdays and Christmas parties at school and you were not allowed to participate? It seems that you do not deny your children these fun things. How do you feel about the Watchtower denying children the opportunities to have fun with classmates?

as some family members I do have in the faith/divided by marriage will also
do

Sorry. I don't know what this sentence means.

as far as smoking or pre marital sex
let he who cast the first stone speak out

I was merely pointing out those things because these things are not considered as reasons for 'disfellowshipping' members in Christian churches. And you know disfellowshipping in the Watchtower means being destroyed at Armageddon. So the grave sin I see here is kicking people out and telling them that Jehovah does not love them anymore and cannot forgive them for these things. They may allow 'disfellowshipped ones' to still attend meetings but they shun them when they do and treat them like dirt. Many young JWs have committed suicide because they thought that would be better than being destroyed at Armageddon. So I am not casting stones here. The Watchtower is sentencing people to death for these things.

i do think misinformation and hypocrisy speaks loud and clear in all
religions.

You are right. So here I stand corrected. I should have pointed out in my original posting that all the things I listed there apply only to Jehovah's Witnesses who have been baptised in "the name of the Father, name of the Son, and in the name of the Spirit led Organization." You can call yourself a Jehovah's Witness and attend as many or as few meetings a week as much as you like and do anything else you want to do like celebrate Christmas and Birthdays, etc.. up until such time as you get baptised into the organizartion. Then all these religious laws apply.

Thanks for pointing out that I may have unintentionally 'misinformed' anyone by not making that clarification earlier.

as a result I can only maintain

be good to others regardless of race or religion and respect the differances
of all others

I agree. I can respect differences but I cannot respect misapplication of scripture which leads to death such as in the case of the ban on blood transfusions, misapplication of scripture which allows pedophiles to roam freely and further victimizes the victims and I cannot respect an organization that practices what they term as 'Theocratic Warfare' which basically condones lying to anyone outside of the organization to 'protect' the organization and an organization that lies to its own members which tells them that they never predicted any dates for the end of the world and will only admit to it when it is proven to them from their own publications. Even then they tell their own members that Jehovah changed his mind.

No, I have no respect for the Watchtower whatsoever. It is not a religion at all but a dangerous cult that must be exposed as such not only to the world but to its own members as well.

By the way, did you know that according to the Watchtower, that only faithful members of the WT will be saved at Armageddon? That means that no matter how nice they may seem to you they really believe that you have no hope? You and I and everyone else outside the WT are called 'goats' behind our backs whether you want to believe that or not.

That's all for now. I am busy preparing for seminars that I am giving at two churches next Saturday and another church in November on this subject in Toronto. I would love to have an excuse to visit the Soo so if anyone would like to invite me to give a seminar at their church, let me know. (private mail please).

[Soundbear]

Well said, Batman, thanks for your input.

Dreamspirit, my basic problem is this re Jesus. Your only source of info on Him is the bible. And you have repeatedly said you don't believe in it. So any comment you make about who or what He is make absolutely no logical sense.

ARE you interested in some of what the bible has to say about Him being God???

[GenX]

The Bible is so clear, so unambiguous, as to the divinity of Jesus as Savior and one with God, that I just cannot comprehend the denial and doctrinal gymnastics JW's must go through to adhere to their beliefs.

[Larimar]

"ARE you interested in some of what the bible has to say about Him being God???
" obviously , or I would not have asked..Did you even read my post ?

"please note that i'm asking out of respect for knowledge"

Thankyou for your input Ayeloof, It helps me better grasp yours and others beliefs.

[Babzz]

I have not read all the posts..

One good thing bout being a jehovah is no christmas gifts to buy /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

[Larimar]

Must be nice to save that money lol

[Batman]

The downside is that you don't get any either.

[Sojourner]

The following article is excellent. I would hope <span style="color: #FF6666">everyone</span> reads it.

Why Atheism? (http://www.godlessgeeks.com/WhyAtheism.htm)

[Larimar]

Is this really the appropriate thread for atheism discussions?
Maybe better suited for one of the threads with atheism titled in it.

[xXx Duffy xXx]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is only one meeting a week that they invite outsiders to. You would be considered an outsider so you would only be told of and invited to that one meeting a week. Also, if your cousin is not a 'baptised' witness then he or she would not be required to attend any meetings at all.</div></div>

Your intelligence, or lack there of astounds me. The kingdom hall is open to newcomers, and visitors all the time. There is NO rule saying "THOU SHALT NOT VISIT US ON MONDAY, FRIDAY, OR WEDNESDAY" ..... Moron.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The downside is that you don't get any either. </div></div>

I dont know about you, but I get stuff bought for me all year round. I dont need a holiday telling me to make someone feel like they matter. I spoil my friends and family. When I have kids, they too will be spoiled.

And to set the record straight ..... Jehovah's Witnesses do not beleive that Jesus is god. They dont beleive in the Trinity. Where Jesus, God, and his holy spirit are all one thing, acting in unicen(sp)

According to their beliefs, god is god. The Alpha omega. The one and only. Jesus, is his son. And the holy spirit is the force upomn which god acts. 3 seperate entinties.

[Larimar]

There's a site that helped me understand the nature of God is Jesus thing, and on further exploration I believe we are all saying the same thing-in different words..
Well, at least I am..That they are two distinct individuals but from the same source-well I'll let this explain it-b.c I don't see how then it matters if someone believes god is go and jesus is jesus or whether they feel it's one in the ame but seperate-Kinda all the same stuff to me lol.

"In the past God spoke to our forefathers by the prophets at many times and in various ways. But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son whom He has appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in the heaven" (Hebrews 1:1-3).
This Jesus, who came to provide “purification for sins”, has the exact same essence as God yet is distinct in Person as His Son. He was the instrument through whom God created the universe (John 1). Sharing the nature of God, Jesus is one with His Father in deity.

You are a tormented soul, aren't you? Why are you so upset?

You called someone a moron, and you have no reason to do that. Batman has been civil with you. What happened to the JW's fav verse? "Come, let us reason together.."

If you want to debate his points, then debate them with reason, not emotion.

You said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And to set the record straight ..... Jehovah's Witnesses do not beleive that Jesus is god. They dont beleive in the Trinity. Where Jesus, God, and his holy spirit are all one thing, acting in unicen(sp)

According to their beliefs, god is god. The Alpha omega. The one and only. Jesus, is his son. And the holy spirit is the force upomn which god acts. 3 seperate entinties.</div></div>

No one has stated otherwise. We KNOW what JW's believe. It is precisely those points that set them apart every since Russell started the movement. He rejected what has been accepted among believers in Jesus for the previous 18 centuries.

DS, you forgot to give us a link to the website you were citing.

Your last post is exactly right.

So if that is what you believe, you are getting closer to the essence of Christianity.

[Larimar]

Sorry I forgot it
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-have-son.html

[Batman]

[quote=Tormented Soul]<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
According to their beliefs, god is god. The Alpha omega. The one and only. </div></div>

Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and is to come, the Almighty."

God is speaking here but then why is He saying He is to come? Isn't it Jesus we are expecting to come? So it looks like Jesus is the Alpha and Omega which means He must be God too.

Then further on we see Him saying, "Do not be afraid, I am the First and the Last [which is the same as Alpha and Omega] Rev.1:17.

Then we see Him again saying to the church in Smyrna, "These are the words of Him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again." Rev. 2:8.

So who died and came to life again? Was it God the Father who is the Alpha and Omega or was it Jesus who is the Alpha and Omega? It looks like both to me. But when did God die? Hmmm ...

And please stop with the name calling. Disagree with me if you will but at least be civil about it. Thanks.

[Larimar]

""who is, and who was, and is to come, the Almighty."
SOunds like he was saying is always is and always will be by using past , present, and futuristic terms that we understand. WWhether a person acknowledges it as Christ coming back, is up to them I suppose.

[Larimar]

The other quote,

""To the angel of the church in Thyatira write: These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze."

I would either see as saying -He was the first and the last-in general-so a God...OR he was the first to come to earth and the first to die, and the last-to do what he did.
either way, doens't bother me.

[Batman]

You are right. If you read the whole passage from the first quote I gave in Rev. 1:17 right up to Rev. 3:22 you will see that the speaker never changes. These are God's words all the way through.

The passage is too long to copy and paste here so you will have to look it up yourself.

[Larimar]

okay

"Whether a person acknowledges it as Christ coming back, is up to them I suppose."

Acknowledging it is one thing. I guess that means acquiescence.

But determining what the text really says is another.

It's interesting. The book of Revelation opens with the introduction to Jesus as Alpha and OMega, and it ends the same way.

See here:
Revelation 22:12-13 12 ¶ "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Who is the speaker? It is unavoidable. In verse 16 He is identified, Revelation 22:16 16 ¶ "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

And then John closes the book by saying (writing) Revelation 22:20 20 ¶ He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

That's merely one way that Jesus is identified as God.

There is tons of other evidence. I'm sure we could flood the board.

[xXx Duffy xXx]

""who is, and who was, and is to come, the Almighty."

Who is ... Present

Who Was ..... Past

Who is to come .... Future

We larned these things in grade school. There's no play on words there. Just have to take it a little differently. The bible was written YEARS ago. The writing isn't always the most blunt.

[Batman]

So what exactly is your point? I think I missed it.

[Larimar]

Who wrote revelations and why is it as authoritative as the apostles?

It was written by the Apostle John, the one who was the closest to Jesus, who also took Mary in to take care of her when Jesus died on the cross, and who also lived longer than any apostle.

He also wrote the gospel of John, which, interestingly enough, contains so many declarations of Jesus as God.

John 1:1 for instance, which says,John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[goodasgold]

My husband was raised JW. Both sets of his grandparents were very active right up till their death. My husband spent his youth knocking on doors and going to the conventions all over. I gave him his first bday gift for his 18th birthday. We had our first kid at 19. Not once did I feel like I wasn't part of the family (I was baptized Roman Catholic) Of course his gparents didn't approve of that and I can't blame them. We don't buy that side of the family gifts for holidays and my hubby's parents don't buy gifts for our kids. Both of his brothers married non-JW so we exchange gifts between the cousins. My kids are being raised that one side of the family do not celebrate Christmas/birthdays/etc. We also don't do Santa Clause, Easter, or the Tooth Fairy. My husband doesn't believe in the lie we tell kids for that.

My kids go to a catholic school as well. So they will learn about both religions. None of them are baptized. I don't believe in choosing a religion for them. They should have that option. I liked the education in the separate system and that's why they do. My husband's parents were a little leary about that, but after the first school year understand the reason for our chooses.

We don't have many JWs knocking on the door. When it happens, I listen and then say no thanks. I find the Mormons to be more "pushy". When my oldest was a month old, they kept coming to my door. I finally told them, look...I'm Catholic, I'm dating a JW, we have a little one right now...I think I have enough troubles then you trying to introduce a third religion. Never heard from them again.

[GRUMPY]

Thats nice, to tell the truth the only thing I have against JWs as well as Mormons is the knocking on the doors. I realize they have their religious rights to do so, but it would be nice if they acknowledged my rights not to be bothered. I find a lot of the post on here to be ignorant ( a word that I'll use no matter what T-Pot says), if a person wants to believe in anything thats their right to do so and I don't get it where some feel its their right to belittle them for it.

[Crusty]

Good point Grumpy ...

[GRUMPY]

Thanks, if theres one thing that gets me its fanatics of any kind whether they be Muslim, Christian or Atheist; as far as I'm concerned they are equally evil. The same ones who feel they have the right to belittle another's faith are the same ones who get greatly offend if somebody doesn't agree with their narrow interpretation of a book.

[Crusty]

hmmmm ... sounds like someone I know ... but I just can't think who it is ...

Is expressing a disagreement what you call 'belittling', Grumpy?

[Batman]

Well I'm not sure what camp I fall in under Grumpy's definition but when I see people dying needlessly and being abused all in the name of God, I'm going to speak out about it. I didn't start this thread. I only responded to it because I saw that someone was not getting the whole picture of this group because they purposely hide the things I pointed out from potential new members. If they used full disclosure on what they believe, no one would join.

So I'm not bashing anyone, just setting the record straight and balancing the scales.

Let's put it this way. If you were out to buy a car or a house you'd do a lot of investigating on that car or house before buying it wouldn't you? I mean just because the salesman says it was only driven by a little old lady on Sundays to go to church doesn't make it so right? And how about that house you want to buy. The salesman says it's all in perfect condition and it looks nice so he must be telling the truth right?

So if you are going to invest thousands of dollars on a purchase like this you want to get a second and a third opinion. Get a mechanic that you trust and has nothing to lose to check out the car. Get a liscenced inspector to check out the house before taking anything the salesman says at face value.

Choosing or rejecting any religion or belief system should involve the same if not more scrutiny. These 'bible studies' that Jehovah's Witnesses give you in your home are a huge investment of time. They will give you one hour a week of their time for up to six months running just to get you to become a baptised JW. Now that is a lot of time invested by both you and them. Now in all that time, they will not tell you half of what I have shared here until after you are a baptised witness. By that time you may have already gotten your whole family involved and baptised in the group. Then if one of you ends up needing a blood transfusion or you have a small child who gets abused, then what happens? It's a mess.

So it's only fair to let people know exactly what they are getting into before they join. The Watchtower is a sales organization. It is not even a recognized religion in Canada. They have no tax-exempt status. They have 6.5 million 'baptised' members (the number triples when you add the ones that are not baptised members) who all work for free. Beginning in January of next year, they will double their sales in magazines by publishing one issue that is for the members only and another issue that is for the public.

The WT is one of the largest pseudo-Christian cults in the world. As of the beginning of 2005, the WTS has 96,894 congregations and an active presence in 232 countries. They have 6,513,132 active members (called "publishers" because they go out distributing their materials to the public). They had 16,760,607 attend their annual "Memorial Meal" (which reflects the number of people with some involvement or attachment to the WT).

The number of WT "publishers" has grown to its present amount from 4,709,889 in 1993, quite a dramatic surge. Of some comfort is the fact that the number of new baptisms has declined from 314,818 worldwide in 1994, to 262,416 in 2004, having reached its peak in 1997 at 450,000. In the United States, however, just over 1 million Jehovah's Witnesses went door-to-door and baptized 30,576 new converts in 2004. Altogether Jehovah's Witnesses logged in more than 1 billion, 282 million hours in "witnessing."

The WT is the single largest publisher and purveyor of religious literature in the world. They publish in 410 languages. Their two primary publications, Watchtower and Awake magazines, number 26.4 and 22.8 million copies respectively. Since 1995, they have printed over 100 million copies of their introductory textbook used in home study programs, Knowledge That Leads to Everlasting Life. These numbers represent an overall pattern of growth, due in part to the Christian Church's failure to educate and equip their congregations in sound doctrine and practice, as well as our neglect in focusing on cults as a mission field.

There are no paid clergy and no paid employees of the WT. All the money that is generated goes into building new Kingdom halls and printing plants. Although much of the WT wealth is now going to pay off victims lawsuits. So much so that they have had to sell off some of the prime real estate holdings they have in Brooklyn to pay off and silence victims.

Why do JWs invest so much time and money into the Watchtower? Is it because they believe they have the truth and they are trying to save the world? No. They will say that but it is really out of fear. They are constantly told over and over again how evil the world is and how Jehovah is going to destroy all but the faithful in the WT. They are also told that if they don't try to recruit you, that your blood will be on their hands so they may not be saved in the end. Want to know why they can be so pushy at the door and on the street? That's why. They are so fearful of not doing enough to be saved. They dare not complain about the long hours of thankless service. Complaining and questioning the WT may get you kicked out.

As far as I'm concerned all JWs are victims and all I'm trying to do prevent them from making more victims. If you saw a child running out onto the street knowing that the child did not see an oncoming truck surely you would yell 'Watch out!' or run out and grab the child. That is all I'm doing. If I see someone getting involved in this organization I just yell out 'Watch out!' because I see the truck coming at them that they don't see.

So Grumpy, if you don't want them coming to your door anymore, here's what you do. Answer the door buck naked and scratch yourself and invite them in. Guaranteed they won't come back! :-)

[GRUMPY]

And how many 100's of thousands have been killed through history all in the name of some guy that got nailed to a tree? As far as the saving the kid from running out into the street the same could be said about warning them not to be alter boys.

Grumpy. God loves you anyway, regardless how cranky you are...

[GRUMPY]

Actually I just got back from my church and its really nice this time of year. The chipmunk is kind of sad though seeing she has only 3+ months to go as Pope but the rabbit can't wait. Be kind of nice to have a change as hes more liberal in his thinking towards things of a sexual matter..

[GenX]

Cranky, and a sense of humor that can be described as mediocre, at best.

Grumpy, you're the epitome of average, so that's something to be proud of /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Batman]

Okay so now where is the laughing smily face for this thread?? I think we need some levity here too.

[GenX]

http://planetsmilies.net/music-smiley-1311.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)





http://planetsmilies.net/obscene-smiley-1005.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

http://planetsmilies.net/obscene-smiley-1012.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

http://planetsmilies.net/sport-smiley-5522.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

[Batman]

Not exactly what I had in mind. Although it is more in keeping with the topic of the thread though! :-)

[GRUMPY]

You have your religion and I have mine.

[Crusty]

I don't who to cheer for in this thread ...

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

[GRUMPY]

the truth