Mark?

[starterwiz]

I think around v.21 Jesus talks about what I call The 5 Rules. I think it may be recently popular as The Secret.
If you have no inner doubts, believe, and pray, anything is possible. I know... that's only 3...what are the others?
Anyone have any experience with this?

I cannot determine what you are pointing to, starterwiz...

[starterwiz]

Ummm...something about being able to "throw the mountain into the sea".
It's in other Gospels as well with different words.

[Larimar]

Mark 11:23

Do you think Jesus meant the mountain as a metaphor?

[Larimar]

I do, but I feel the message is telling us that if we place our faith in God, and do not doubt his power we can "metaphorically" move mounties-or in other words accomplish much good.

[starterwiz]

I think he says more in the passage. All my bibles are in storage, but I'll try to find it on the net.

[starterwiz]

For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
King James Mark 11:23

[starterwiz]

Ok...it really is only 3 rules. Perhaps the other two don't need to be stated.

[starterwiz]

I can guarantee this truth: This is what will be done for someone who doesn't doubt but believes what he says will happen: He can say to this mountain, 'Be uprooted and thrown into the sea,' and it will be done for him.

I really don't like pasting from the net, but those two kinda say what I remember.
Who can do this?

[starterwiz]

He was replying to a question about the fig tree. How is this a metaphor? He had just performed a miracle, and explained how anyone could do it.

That's a good question. The only problem is, that if it ISN'T a metaphor, then no one, not even his immediate disciples pulled it off.

[starterwiz]

How do you know that?

[starterwiz]

What I'm getting at is that the bible tells of all these miracles, gifts of language, and other paranormal events, and when Jesus' words explaining it are recorded in more than one gospel....well why is it not significant? Just a metaphor?

I don't get it.

[Soundbear]

I don't believe it was a metaphor. God's power working in man CAN accomplish anything. BUT. Men are sinners. And how often do they really, really want to do mighty works JUST for God's glory??? 'Cause that's why these miracles were done. That's why ANY miracles were/are done.

[starterwiz]

It doesn't say "just for God's glory" tho. There's no reference to limitations, other than "whatsoever".

[Larimar]

It only says that if we believe what we say it will come to pass-There's no limits to it unless we are adding our own beliefs into the quote.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: starterwiz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It doesn't say "just for God's glory" tho. There's no reference to limitations, other than "whatsoever". </div></div>

I know it doesn't say that. But what is the alternative?? God is going to lend you His power for YOUR glory??? I doubt it. "But have we not done miracles in Your name? Depart from me, I never knew you".

This concept is implied throughout Scripture.

[starterwiz]

OK...that would be one of the missing rules then.
What else prevents us from performing this?

[Soundbear]

I dunno about it being a missing rule. Just musing, but it's true that we must submit to God to be His.

Matt 7:22-23
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

So it's possible to do all kinds of miracles WHERE GOD GETS THE GLORY and still be lost.
Interesting.

[starterwiz]

Where is the speedy cut & paster when you need him?
All I can find on this story are very long winded, roundabout ways of describing it as a parable. Seems like a stretch to me that a straight answer needs to be twisted so. Every word represents" something else? Because He "couldn't" have meant it the way He said it?
Or are there other reasons that this recipe for miracles is not commonly followed?

No inner doubt, say it, believe and have faith, be for the Glory of God...what's missing?

[Soundbear]

You say, "Faith looks up." At what?? At Someone??

If it does, pray in sincerity to God to show you the answer. And keep reading His word.

[starterwiz]

Well I keep looking, and all I can find is parables.
Does no-one have anything to add to this phenomenon after 2000 years? Anything "accepted"?

It seems strange to me, that some Christians are putting more faith into interpretations than into the actual words.

[Soundbear]

Ignoring what I told ya???

Keep in mind that Jesus often spoke in parables to hide the true meanings of His teachings from non-believers.

There's only one way around that

[starterwiz]

No, I'm not ignoring you.
I understand that He spoke in parables, but not all of His words were.
I was hoping to hear from some of the posters here that relish in splitting hairs, and delving deep into the details of whatever doctrine may be on this topic in the different faiths. I don't have the knowledge to know where to begin looking.
Perhaps the fact that there are no concrete answers available to paste has kept them away.

Or perhaps one doesn't have the time.
Or perhaps there are certain attitudes that are not inviting to a poster...

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: starterwiz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, I'm not ignoring you.
I understand that He spoke in parables, but not all of His words were.
I was hoping to hear from some of the posters here that relish in splitting hairs, and delving deep into the details of whatever doctrine may be on this topic in the different faiths. I don't have the knowledge to know where to begin looking.
Perhaps the fact that there are no concrete answers available to paste has kept them away.

</div></div>

I said, "If it does, pray in sincerity to God to show you the answer...." That was the most important part.

And perhaps there ARE no concrete answers, at least as far as we can understand. We are finite and He is infinite. There's no way to understand everything He is going to reveal. BUT He will reveal what we need, IF we ask and are willing to accept.

[starterwiz]

"There's no way to understand everything He is going to reveal. BUT He will reveal what we need, IF we ask and are willing to accept."

I don't accept that. I think that pure understanding is possible, and worth striving for. Hence I am asking.

If two people have the same degree of faith, and pray for good things, and think and say what will be, but are asking for opposing things, what is the outcome?
This is the only reason I can come up with as to why this is not always possible. For example farmers pray for rain, and cottagers pray for sun.
Searching for miracles has resulted in no proof that they are impossibe.

[Larimar]

I think when answering prayers God is Just and does what's good for the ultimate good.-Even though we don't know what that is-And many philosophers like Socrates believe that to be a good and just person you need punishment and disciplin-so apply that to the greater good i situations, we now understand that we need negative things to flourish and progress our souls for the greater good.

Then another point..It can be wondered if the faith brings about answers, but not necessarily in the form one wants.

For example, the farmer wants rain, why?- Not b.c they enjoy the actual rain Bc his main goal is that the crops be grown
-his end goal
The Cottagers want sun, why?
Not b.c they want to be outside doing activities, but not b.c they particularly want the Star or anything..lol

So the answer God's REAllllyyyy trying to help with is not the weather, but the outcomes.
He could help the farmer by letting it rain, but making it a light sprinkle-It will help the crops and help cottagers b.c they could try an activity like fishing-Where the fish bite more b.c the rain is hitting the top of the water.
Their end goals are still both met.

Some prayers may not seem answered when something bad happens to us.

Let's say I pray to lose weight.
I have the faith, I am wanting it to better myself and my health.

I can't keep away from the chocolaty temptation of cake- I get sick.
First reaction is to think God did not help me.

Second thought-I can wonder if having a punishment, for my lack of disciplin (Not being strict with eating healthy, and getting sick as the punishment) is God's natural way of ridding of the need for that temptation of chocolate. Getting sick would make me not want the food as much.
So I can take the pain and negative outcome and learn from it on my own. God doesn't need to grant us wishes, we need to accomplish our prayers on our own at times, but God can give us some pointers-Does that make sense somewhat?
It's difficult to get out my thoughts at times.
Next, we wonder how God could let bad things happen to good people-Their prayers don't seem answered. I think that there's too many examples and variations of what could be happening to get into too much detail on that one, but I believe that for the soul to progress we do need pain, and hardship to understand life and God better and even ourselves. So sometimes the ultimate good is to go through the pain and learn from it.





SO basically, no prayer can really outweigh another, it's how we listen to the answers that matter the most.
just my humble opinion
any questions ? lol. If I made anyone confused, sorries.

[kalam]

Good day, DreamSpirit,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DreamSpirit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think when answering prayers God is Just and does what's good for the ultimate good. </div></div>

So are prayers even needed, in this case? Wouldn'd God, being just, do what's good for the ultimate good anyway? Why would this even require prayer?

BTW, this question isn't only being directly asked of DreamSpirit - I am looking for other opinions as well.

Respectfully,

KaL

I believe prayer is not simply a matter of 'getting what I want' from the cosmic sugar daddy. That is the most common misunderstanding about prayer.

It is a form of communication with my heavenly Father that nourishes and strengthens my relationship with him. It also help me to focus clearly on the matters that are heavy on my heart.

We will ultimately find out that prayer is a spiritual discipline that changes our hearts more than His, and and through that discipline he sculpts our hearts and souls into something beautiful and usable for Him.

And along the way; yes, there are answers to some of our prayers.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: starterwiz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"There's no way to understand everything He is going to reveal. BUT He will reveal what we need, IF we ask and are willing to accept."

I don't accept that. I think that pure understanding is possible, and worth striving for. Hence I am asking.

If two people have the same degree of faith, and pray for good things, and think and say what will be, but are asking for opposing things, what is the outcome?
This is the only reason I can come up with as to why this is not always possible. For example farmers pray for rain, and cottagers pray for sun.
Searching for miracles has resulted in no proof that they are impossibe. </div></div>

As I read what you say, and note you STILL will not ackowledge what I told you about asking God for help, I remember what Iread about Billy Graham in one of the biographies. When he realized that his friend Charles Templeton was falling away from the faith, Billy struggled with some of the questions Charles was asking. Finally, Billy told God, basically, "I don't understand it all, but I will accept." You know the rest of their stories.

I will agree with Billy. I don't fully understand, and indeed, I KNOW that I cannot. But I accept.

One thing I notice. The questions posed rarely come back with solid negative answers. The questions alone seem enough to cause you to doubt.

I will not.

[Larimar]

"So are prayers even needed, in this case? Wouldn'd God, being just, do what's good for the ultimate good anyway? Why would this even require prayer?"
I'll answer your Q , though It's not Christian based, so It won't jive with many here. But if you are just curious how others believe I will tell you..

My beliefs are somewhat different-B.c I believe in pre birth charting-So our own destinies are chosen by us before being born. In my beliefs prayer is used for Thanking, Asking for guidance along our chosen path, and to ask for help-When asking for help I don't feel it will knock out what I had previously chosen for my life-and I don't believe God woul dintervene with my free will to have chosen to struggle in my life and learn a lot-So prayer may be giving him and his angels the power to review my life and see if it is really for the greatest good that I slow down or am given a break despite what I wanted previously b4 birth. Some people are denied, i'm sure that happens-They may have even chosen to be denied prayer, whereas someone else chooses they want a prayer by God answered so that they can believe in God again, for some reason-There's so many variations to this that's why it's not an easy question to answer.
Prayer may also boost peoples spirits- gives them hope, even if something is pre destined to happen regardless-They are just surrounding themselves with love and positivity of God-So they may never get something givin to them, but they may get angels and positive energy sent to them to help.
Hope that makes sense!
So I do believe in fate -our own from free will and the choices we make b4 birth and after on Earth. Prayer is just one way to help us through our choices. God probably ~being all knowing~ and all-knows what we will pray for b4 we ever know we want to pray, so I'm sure it's complicated and It's worked out somehow. I just have faith that it works lol.
So Not many people here believe in reincarnation , so My beliefs are a tad different.
I mostly use prayer for protection and thanks. I don't feel though, that God's love is off limits for anyone at any time /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
-Ask and you shall recieve- right?
So I imagine that we are allowed to ask for help /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif As long as we are willing to do the work also.


So in short-prayer would be needed for God to intervene with our free willed plan.

Anyhow, that's just my beliefs, you'll have to get another person to get a more Christian /bible perspective /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
thanks for listening.

[starterwiz]

I have asked for help, in understanding, and for confirmation that what I feel is true. And I have received answers. But I will continue to ask anyway. It's not so much that I doubt...I don't at all. I am asking more to see if others have come to the same conclusions as I.
One can go crazy trying to define the impossible, so I simply seek to engage in some modern discourse on an ancient subject.
I'm truly interested in other's thoughts on the subject, to make some sense of events that make no sense. If that makes sense.

[Larimar]

I ask God sometimes for confirmation, I get it loud and clear /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[starterwiz]

I was despairing once, looked up to a sky full of dark grey clouds, and said "I know you're still there God" and the sun cracked through the clouds and circled me for maybe 2 or 3 seconds. A circle around me maybe 25 to 50 ft across. There wasn't a fleas chance on Jupiter that anyone saw the sun that day, but it was an instant.
I have never doubted since, but I've still got lots of questions for Him.
This is not an easy subject. Not easy to speak about at least. If it became believable, then everyone would start to create, simply by speaking. Imagine the chaos.
I think we(as a race) need to still learn to live and work together, before we are able to handle that kind of power, and yet we already are speaking...just not always towards good.
And it's a subject easily confused with some forms of mental illness. Extreme religious behavior is well assocciated with schizophrenia. Hence it is well suppressed.

Everyone has had instances where they think of someone, and soon they appear. "Oh isn't that funny, I was just thinking about you", "Yeah me too" is all it ever gets to. Without even speaking.
I beleive that Jesus was speaking as plainly as he could. He was angry at the money changers, and probably in no mood for parables and loving stories. Perhaps he blurted out more than he should have, and someone has been backpeddling ever since.

[Soundbear]

Backpedalling?? Doesn't sound very Godly to me. And Jesus is God. So I don't think so.

As a child, one can still have many questions for one's parent. But the trust is still there.

The trust is the point.

[starterwiz]

Not saying God is backpedalling. Society and most religions seems to frown upon anyone that claims to have a "special" connection to God, unless they are duly elected as such by men.

I gave a man a ride once who virtually claimed to be John the Babtist. He never said it, but implied it repeatedly, and I never questioned him because I was too entralled by his words to bother. Was he John, or was that just his name. He said he was a travelling preacher, but he had nothing.
I left him at a shelter, as the people I was with didn't want to bring a "dirty bum" into their house for the night.
I recall I was moving a van packed to the roof, and had to re-arrange things into another car to make room for him. It was the last 4 hours of a long stressful move, that had me on the edge of my seat for many hours keeping the heavy van between the lines.
The last few hours listening to him talk went by in a flash, and I hardly noticed I was driving.

Someone I trust told me another story.
She was having a hard time staying alive, and was driving home with her daughter, when they saw a man hitchiking.
That man looks like Jesus...pick him up", said the daughter just before they needed to stop for gas.

The man said from the back seat to the mother "I know your name is **** and I know you want to kill yourself, but I'm here to tell you that God has something He wants you to finish."
They stopped for gas and he got out of the car and was gone. She went on to achieve something that was surely what God wants. I won't say what to keep it personal.

Where these people bums or something more?

If Jesus talked to you, would you know Him?
Are you taught that it's not only possible, but probable, and taught to recognize Him or them when they appear?

I wasn't.