The Pope and Global Warming

[KDawg]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The Pope is expected to use his first address to the United Nations to deliver a powerful warning over climate change in a move to adopt protection of the environment as a "moral" cause for the Catholic Church and its billion-strong following.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It also follows a series of interventions by the Pope on the environment. On 2 September he told a 300,000 youth audience: "Before it is too late, it is necessary to make courageous decisions that reflect knowing how to re-create a strong alliance between man and the earth." </div></div>

On this board we have fought back and forth about the validity of man-made global warming. We now have the pope, religious head of one-fifth of the world's population saying it's a moral imperative. We don't need to rehash the science on either side, because I think we all know the arguments - it's not settled. There is also strong evidence to suggest its proponents have an ulterior motive (taxing the air we breathe, transfers of wealth to other areas in the world, etc.) Global warming has also been described as a pagan religion by some, including me.

Now the people, head of the catholic church is calling for action on global warming a moral imperative. With this statement, I put him in the same category as Al Gore and others who do have an ulterior motive. These are not the words of an infallible vicar of Christ -- this makes Pope Benedict something else.

BTW, there's no mention of God or Jesus Christ in that article.

Pope to make climate action a moral obligation (http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2987811.ece)

[GenX]

Every pronouncement by a leading Protestant mentions Christ or God???

Get off your high horse and breathe the air in the real world.

[GenX]

"These are not the words of an infallible vicar of Christ"


This WAS NOT an infallible statement! Catholics can accept it or not.

See, you people are so god-awfully ignorant on these things you make complete asses of yourselves.

Look up what infallibility is before making such idiotic and useless threads!

The ignorance of some of you people is simply STAGGERRING!!!!!!!

[GenX]

Educate Yourself (http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp)


An infallible pronouncement—whether made by the pope alone or by an ecumenical council—usually is made only when some doctrine has been called into question.

Is Global Warming "doctrine"????

Wake up!!

[Return of Too Many Daves]

Calm down Speedy we tollerate your ignorance in the many, many areas you lack education yet profess to be an expert. Perhaps you could extend the same courtesy to the rest of the board.

[GenX]

What you think is "ignorance" is usually knowledge you've never been exposed to. I've educated you, there is no doubt.

In this instance, I'm not calming down. To make a thread accusing the Pope of making a terrible "infallible" statement is just ridiculous.

Rest assured, if Martin Luther had said it, you'd be going ape yourself..

[GenX]

BS, and you know it.

How can you sit by and watch such ignorance? I thought you were interested in reasoned and informed debate?

[GenX]

Well, at least your honest in letting us know such things were really not that important to you.

Kudos for that, at least.

[KDawg]

Relax Speedy. My point isn't about the technicalities of which statements by the pope are to be considered infallible or not. I'll retract the infallibility argument.

The bigger question is why is the pope on the side of the Global Warming proponents and calling it a moral obligation? You've gone on here as much or more than myself against global warming being a man made phenomenom and the actions its proponents are demanding. You know what they call for, and now Pope Benedict is in that camp. What do you say about that?

Also, look at the quote of Pope Benedict in my first post:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> "Before it is too late, it is necessary to make courageous decisions that reflect knowing how to re-create a strong alliance between man and the earth." </div></div>

The earth is God's creation. Has Jesus Christ ever called for an "alliance" between man and creation? That's paganism, pure and simple.

Don't worry. I recognize papal bull when I see it.

Wait a minute. That didn't come out right.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That's paganism, pure and simple. </div></div>

How do you derive paganism from that statement??
I think in your zeal you are over-interpreting.

[GRUMPY]

Who honestly cares what the old goat says?

Grumpy, right on cue!

[GRUMPY]

What I mean is every so often you get these decrees from on high but who actually pays any attention to them any more?

[GRUMPY]

On a side note please refrain from using the term "ignorant" please otherwise T-Pot will be doing his old cut and paste with the dictionary again.

[starterwiz]

"Before it is too late, it is necessary to make courageous decisions that reflect knowing how to re-create a strong alliance between man and the earth."
Is there anything at all wrong with this?
No-one still believes that global warming is not our problem, do they?

The question is whether it is caused by humans or by a naturally occurring cycle.

[starterwiz]

Are humans not naturally occurring?

I must have missed something somewhere. Who believes we can dump tons of carbon without consequence?.

err.. ummm.. I'll let someone else field that question.

[starterwiz]

Oh My!

[KDawg]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: starterwiz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are humans not naturally occurring?

I must have missed something somewhere. Who believes we can dump tons of carbon without consequence?. </div></div>

Naturally occurring as in volcanic eruptions, solar activity and gases released from the oceans. If this is the case, then Al Gore, and practically every politician, are completely wrong-headed, and have ulterior motives in their calls to tax our air, create carbon credits, and whatever else to control human activity, which is exactly what these measures would do. Pope Benedict is now on this side.

[starterwiz]

Reminds me of a character in a Heinlein novel that was complaining of the "air tax" in the moon colony.
He was told that he was free to leave.

TANSTAAFL (There ain't no such thing as a free lunch)

[1337]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grumpy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On a side note please refrain from using the term "ignorant" please otherwise T-Pot will be doing his old cut and paste with the dictionary again.</div></div>

Gumpy, they used the word right.

[Crusty]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: T-pot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grumpy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On a side note please refrain from using the term "ignorant" please otherwise T-Pot will be doing his old cut and paste with the dictionary again.</div></div>

Gumpy, they used the word right. </div></div>


/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif

You're funny.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: starterwiz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Reminds me of a character in a Heinlein novel that was complaining of the "air tax" in the moon colony.
He was told that he was free to leave.

TANSTAAFL (There ain't no such thing as a free lunch)
</div></div>

Good book, with some intereting ideas about how to run a government. "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" for the interested.

Speedy must be in an awful quandry here. No wonder he jumped on the "infallibility" comment and then disappeared. His religious leader is supporting something Speedy thinks is nonsense. What an interesting dilemma.

[GenX]

Benedict can support whatever he wants. I can accept what he says, or not, when he is espousing views such as this. I happen to disagree with him on this issue. Does that mean we part ways?

The only "quandary" here is the one caused by Protestant ignorance of papal infallibility.

[Return of Too Many Daves]

Aren't you worried that millions of Catholics will be influenced by his opinions on this issue?

[starterwiz]

Hmmm.
The Pope makes a declaration regarding the "moral obligation" of all Catholics, but you choose to disagree.
Will you obey, despite the disagreement? Can you decide that in this case he is fallible?
I'd call it a quandary.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Return of Too Many Daves</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Aren't you worried that millions of Catholics will be influenced by his opinions on this issue? </div></div>

Millions out of the billion already see the issue just as he does.

Aren't you worried you agree with the leader of the RCC?

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Pope Benedict is now on this side </div></div>

So does that mean his philosophical leanings on other issues are wrong? What about the issues where he has the same side as you?

[GenX]

From earlier this year:

"Cardinal George Pell is calling for caution regarding exaggerated claims of severe global warming and says he’s “deeply skeptical about man-made catastrophic global warming, but still open to further evidence.”

In his weekly Sunday Telegraph column, the cardinal-archbishop of Sydney said people have been “subjected to a lot of nonsense about climate disasters as some zealots have been painting extreme scenarios to frighten us.”

He called those who make claims about ice caps melting and ocean levels rising spectacularly “doomsdayers” and “scaremongers.”"

LINK (http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=8678)

A leading Cardinal and the Pope disagree on global warming.

Big deal!

It's not a doctrinal dispute. It is on matters of doctrine only where the Pope speaks through the infallibility promised and strengthened through the Holy Spirit.

The Pope spoke on a matter that was informed through his interpretation of the issues at hand. He spoke as a leading philosopher of the Church, on a matter that he feels is important; but it is also a matter that has little to do with fundamental doctrine. Cardinal Pell spoke as a leading philosopher, also. Philosophers can disagree. Where they can't disagree, at least as far as the RCC is concerned, is on matters of fundamental doctrine. Global warming is NOT fundamental doctrine.

[1337]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Crusty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: T-pot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grumpy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On a side note please refrain from using the term "ignorant" please otherwise T-Pot will be doing his old cut and paste with the dictionary again.</div></div>

Gumpy, they used the word right. </div></div>


/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif

You're getting quite pathetic.
You're funny.</div></div>

[GenX]

Maybe it's because you called Grumpy "Gumpy"

[Strategio]

The question is also wether or not it is actually a bad thing. What is wrong with global warming? The planet is getting warmer. So what? There are many far more immediate and far more important issues we can address right now. Maybe focus is the issue. Maybe getting priotities straight is the issue. While we rich North Americans squabble about how global warming could make life difficult and expensive for us 100 or 200 years future, millions of children are still dying of starvation and disease. Talk about wasting resources? Spending time and money like our countries are doing on the global warming band wagon is a waste of resources that simply cannot be excused.

[starterwiz]

Given that the curve we are on is exponentialy rising, it may be too late to stop it in 100 or 200 years. It may be too late already. Who really knows?

I do think that the most powerful country in the world could solve the problem rather quickly if they put their will to it.

Of two shows I saw, one said that during WW2 the US rolled a Flying Fortress off the line every 63 seconds, each one containing 1.5 million parts. The other said that China will be building a new super coal fired generating plant every 6 weeks.

There's that darn math again...the curve is inevitable, and there IS only one curve. The shapes we see depend soley on perspective. We still have the power to change our perspective to hundreds of years, and if we are to survive, we must act while it is still within our power.

I cannot tell you what the right answer is.

The wrong answer is that waiting too long caused the demise of my offspring, and perhaps the human race.

Are you willing to promise me that that won't happen Speedy?

I at least am glad that Pope Benedict has spoken to the matter. There's something about "saying it" that creates.

[starterwiz]

If Speedy et al was in charge of our environment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfdHqorbO1Y

[KDawg]

I agree, Mahers. Who's to say it IS bad? Vegetation loves warm temperatures and carbon dioxide, and humans love vegetation.

This is why I say that those who think global warming should be fought against with restrictive measures on our behaviour have ulterior motives.

[KDawg]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From earlier this year:

"Cardinal George Pell is calling for caution regarding exaggerated claims of severe global warming and says he’s “deeply skeptical about man-made catastrophic global warming, but still open to further evidence.”

In his weekly Sunday Telegraph column, the cardinal-archbishop of Sydney said people have been “subjected to a lot of nonsense about climate disasters as some zealots have been painting extreme scenarios to frighten us.”

He called those who make claims about ice caps melting and ocean levels rising spectacularly “doomsdayers” and “scaremongers.”"
</div></div>

You could substitute Stephen Harper for the Cardinal in that quote, about a year ago. Harper's pretty much done a 180 on global warming now.

[Return of Too Many Daves]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree, Mahers. Who's to say it IS bad? Vegetation loves warm temperatures and carbon dioxide, and humans love vegetation.

This is why I say that those who think global warming should be fought against with restrictive measures on our behaviour have ulterior motives. </div></div>

Maybe you should do some reading?

[KDawg]

Thankyou. I have, and I've decided not to buy into the hysteria.

Harper's a politician. The only thing he bought into is votes..

[Karen-Annie]

The one thing that really amazes me is how many people there are who believe God created the universe(which would make it a divine creation,no?) and yet feel free to have man c*r*a*p all over it and injure it with impunity.Because God gave humans "dominion" is there no "stewardship" component there?Is there no "moral obligation" to take care of and nurture what God has given us?

Sometimes I think a large number of climate changee deniers(many of whom are evangelical Christians)believe this is a way of hastening the Second Coming and therefore do everything possible to make sure NOTHING slows it down.

For once I agree with something Pope Benedict has opined!

[Soundbear]

Karen, I believe God knows the date of His return, and nothing man can or cannot do will change it.

And I don't think climate change really matters to real Christians.

[Return of Too Many Daves]

BM

If "real" christians aren't concerned whether humans are destroying the earth, then does it follow that they are not concerned about avoiding nuclear holocaust?

[Karen-Annie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Karen, I believe God knows the date of His return, and nothing man can or cannot do will change it.

And I don't think climate change really matters to real Christians. </div></div>

Real Christians don't think taking care of and being good stewards of the gifts God has given them really matters?Then I guess I glad I'm not considered a "real" Christian by the real Christians.

[almabear]

I think Karen Annie is right, God did give dominion of the earth to people and I believe we ought to be good stewards of it and do all we can to clean it up and take care of it as Christians as well as anyone else. But there is also an element of politics to all of this which bothers me. If we can leave out the politics and hysteria it would be more palatable and people woulnd't feel like they are being manipulated with every other news story.
At least that's how I feel.

[Soundbear]

What should be important to a Christian:

Get to heaven.

Take as many as you can with you.


Now that does NOT mean we don't re-cycle. And we don't litter. But the bible DOES say this earth will not last.

Abuse it? No. Take extraordinary measures to protect it?? No.

I ain't gonna buy no stinking bicycle!!!

[Soundbear]

P.S. Is there climate change?? Darn right there is!!! Has been noticable for about 20 years.

It remains annoying that the biggest polluters are the ones who say man has nothing to do with it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And I don't think climate change really matters to real Christians. </div></div>

This is misinformed, if not an outright bag of horsefeathers!

Barry, there is a growing movement and realization among REAL Christians to mitigate what they see as the causes of global warming. I just listened to a sermon today that included teaching (on the basis of the creation mandate) on taking care of the planet.

Where global warming comes from is still obviously disputable.

But it is beyond dispute that we are obligated to not treat with disdain what God calls good. Karen Annie is right.

Don't be so quick to speak for all real Christians.

Barry, uugghh, that bothers me.
What is this? A spiritual scalping contest?

Get to heaven and take as many with you as you can?

Why does that rub me the wrong way? Let me think out loud.

Is that really the most important thing? To get there?
What is heaven? Is it a place outside of our space time/continuum?

What did Jesus mean when he taught us to pray, on earth, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on EARTH as well as in heaven?"

What do YOU think is our responsibility here on earth as a result of the creation mandate?

And PLEASE don't turn this into a US/political issue.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....Is that really the most important thing? To get there?
What is heaven? Is it a place outside of our space time/continuum?
</div></div>

Yes it is.

And...

Luke 21:33
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.


The US and Canada don't matter much in the sight of eternity.

"Barry, there is a growing movement and realization among REAL Christians to mitigate what they see as the causes of global warming...."

I believe there is. I also believe it's not the job of the church.

Isn't this bizarre.. I believe that man very likely IS the cause of global warming. And you don't. And now we're arguing different sides???

[Soundbear]

"What shall it profit a man to SAVE the whole world and lose his own soul???"

Barry, show me that in eternity, the earth will not be a major part of the New creation. And where will God live in the new eternity?
See Rev 21.

I believe the earth will have an ongoing role to play for eternity.

So keeping the earth clean may not be the job of the church,
can you see it being the job of every individual?

Just like ringing the bell for freedom from slavery may not have been the job for the whole church, but God certainly called certain individuals to lead the charge as activists.

And as long as you are misquoting scripture: what about
What shall it profit a man to SAVE the whole world and save his own soul???" Why not both and? Is there anything wrong with that?

Is the most important thing for a Christian to get to heaven and take as many as possible with him?

What are we called to do?

[GRUMPY]

Only if they want toi go with you.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barry, show me that in eternity, the earth will not be a major part of the New creation. And where will God live in the new eternity?
See Rev 21.

I believe the earth will have an ongoing role to play for eternity.

So keeping the earth clean may not be the job of the church,
can you see it being the job of every individual?

Just like ringing the bell for freedom from slavery may not have been the job for the whole church, but God certainly called certain individuals to lead the charge as activists.

And as long as you are misquoting scripture: what about
What shall it profit a man to SAVE the whole world and save his own soul???" Why not both and? Is there anything wrong with that?

</div></div>


Isa 65:17
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


Isa 66:22
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.


2 Pet 3:13
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Rev 21:1
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


How can the earth be "passed away" and "not remembered" if it's still around?? And the heavens we see will be part of it, in other words, I believe the universe.

The basic question. What is more important on earth than the human soul??

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is the most important thing for a Christian to get to heaven and take as many as possible with him?

What are we called to do? </div></div>

Tell us.

The basic question. What is more important on earth than the human soul??

"Thy kingdom come, they will be done.."

[Return of Too Many Daves]

I want to go to Muslim heaven, it sounds better. Unless you've got a better sales pitch for Christian heaven that is.

[KDawg]

I agree with Barry. It's not the case that we have to polish and shine THIS earth because we need it after Jesus Christ comes again (see the quotes Barry cited). That is not to say that we shouldn't be good stewards of this earth. I am all for reducing pollution, recycling, minimizing waste and all that.

However, two different issues are being mixed up here. We SHOULD be good stewards of the earth. The government wants to go way beyond that and impose measures that do NOTHING to help the environment. Carbon tax credits are a joke. Al Gore buys these credits (ie. invests in his own company) and says he's hlped the environment. In Canada, were apparently committed to the Kyoto Accord, which will drive our economy into the ground, if we try to meet its targets.

We, as individuals, being good stewards of the earth, does not have to be equated with accepting Draconian measures that the government wants to impose on us.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And I don't think climate change really matters to real Christians. </div></div>

This is misinformed, if not an outright bag of horsefeathers!

Barry, there is a growing movement and realization among REAL Christians to mitigate what they see as the causes of global warming. I just listened to a sermon today that included teaching (on the basis of the creation mandate) on taking care of the planet.

Where global warming comes from is still obviously disputable.

But it is beyond dispute that we are obligated to not treat with disdain what God calls good. Karen Annie is right.

Don't be so quick to speak for all real Christians. </div></div>

He doesn't speak for me and I consider myself a real Christian.

Ayd: "But it is beyond dispute that we are obligated to not treat with disdain what God calls good. Karen Annie is right." I absolutely agree with both of you.

And if climate change isn't supposed to matter to Barry's version of Christianity, then these people might want to take off their blinders and look at how man's contributions to global warming (whether you believe it or not) are poisoning the air and water that your brothers' children need to live.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We, as individuals, being good stewards of the earth, does not have to be equated with accepting Draconian measures that the government wants to impose on us. </div></div>

I agree. I also think that there are more immediate threats to our environment than the trendy aspect of Global Warming. It's too easy to ignore with the scientific community divided over it and so much politicizing and misinformation of the issue. Kyoto is a joke, that will do little to spare the world from pollutants on a global scale. All it will do is hasten the effects that are already occurring due to tightening environmental laws -namely, shift industry to countries that have less environmental protection than these industries are currently subject to, all the while people in the developed nations trade "green" credits like hockey cards. It's all a smoke screen. We should be more concerned about our dwindling supply of clean, fresh water and the amount of carcinogenic particulate matter we are pumping into the air -the scientific community is NOT divided over this issue.

To shift back in line with the topic; I agree with the Pope's statement simply for the fact that if one shifts their perspective to more Godly pursuits, and away from the never-ending quest for "more", then the negative effects we are causing to happen to our world would decrease simply by the change in activities. If we hadn't lost this perspective to begin with, what would be the state of the planet now, after avoiding centuries of worshipping the god of wealth and power?

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The basic question. What is more important on earth than the human soul??

"Thy kingdom come, they will be done.."


</div></div>

OK, fine, but what are the next two words of that quote??


Matt 6:10
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done IN EARTH, as it is in heaven.

And earth will be gone, replaced!!

And His will is that all should be saved. How much Chritian effort will be diverted from the great commission to saving the environment??

Like I said, I do my part not to make things worse on earth. But I will NOT forget what is really important in eternity.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Return of Too Many Daves</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I want to go to Muslim heaven, it sounds better. Unless you've got a better sales pitch for Christian heaven that is. </div></div>

Bin Laden's Afterlife Surprise

After getting nailed by a Daisy Cutter, Osama made his way to the pearly gates. There, he is greeted by George Washington.

"How dare you attack the nation I helped conceive!" yells Mr. Washington, slapping Osama in the face. Patrick Henry comes up from behind: "You wanted to end the Americans' liberty, so they gave you death!" Henry punches Osama on the nose. James Madison comes up next, and says, "This is why I allowed the Federal government to provide for the common defense!" He drops a large weight on Osama's knee.

Osama is subject to similar beatings from John Randolph of Roanoke, James Monroe and 65 other 18th-century American revolutionaries. As he writhes on the ground, Thomas Jefferson picks him up to hurl him back toward the gate where he is to be judged.

As Osama awaits his journey to his final very hot destination, he screams, "This is not what I was promised!"

An angel replies: "I told you there would be 72 Virginians waiting for you. What did you think I said?"

Like I said, I do my part not to make things worse on earth. But I will NOT forget what is really important in eternity.

_____________
Barry, you keep creating these false dichotomies with the either or.

Who says one has to forget what is really important in the future in order to do what is really important right now?

Why can't you think both/and?

[Soundbear]

Because I don't know anybody who can do that. Because I don't know of any church that can do that.

Serving two masters indeed. Can't do it.

[almabear]

Barry are you saying that if we take stewardship of all God gives us and take care of it as gifts from God and we also witness to God's saving grace for all, that we are serving two Masters? That's what it sounds like you're saying.

It's almost like saying, I'm not going to take care of my body since I'm going to die and go to heaven anyway. That would be irresponsible wouldn't it?

[Soundbear]

Look at churches that do the environment thing. How is their evangelism??

I don't know of ANY Christian who is heavily involved in work outside the church who does an effective job INSIDE the church. That applies to anything from soup kitchens to environmental issues.

We don't balance things very well. And I just think that soul-reaching must be the most important thing to the church.

I guess one of the things that bugs me about the way you word things is that you (ironically) make people feel like you do not care about them with your choice of words. (I know that in real life, you DO care for people for the right reasons). But this BBS is not real life

Referring to them as souls that need to be won, makes them feel like missionary projects, and they will run the other way.

Befriending people and doing the right thing by them, regardless of whether they EVER convert or not is probably what God expects of us.

And taking care of our resources, regardless of whether "it's all going to burn in the end" is what we are to do.

In other words, doing the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do, irrespective of outcomes is more powerful than simply approaching people as 'souls to be won' and if they won't be won, forget 'em.

I think that's one of the reasons why the way you express it bugs me.

[GenX]

[quote=Barry Morris

And I don't think climate change really matters to real Christians. [/quote]

What???????????

The guy who spent all last year creating numerous threads about the supposed connection between Global Warming and an active hurricane season the year before??????

ARE YOU KIDDING ME????

The guy who told us Global warming is probably part of the "End Times" scenario, playing out right before our eyes?

Barry, please!!

You may want to take your "Peace of Christ" sig off...your obvious hypocrisy makes a mockery of the saying.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"What shall it profit a man to SAVE the whole world and lose his own soul???" </div></div>

If I misquoted the Bible so egregiously we’d hear for the next two weeks how Catholics don’t read the Bible, yada, yada, yada...

Unbelievable.

[Karen-Annie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"What shall it profit a man to SAVE the whole world and lose his own soul???" </div></div>

And are there not other verses indicating that what we do to and for the least of our brethern on earth,we do for to and for God?Can you show a verse that says "Forget everything else I said before.Saving your soul is the only thing to concern yourself with."??

I really don't understand why you seem to believe that being good stewards of our planet and good neighbours to its citizens means you lose your soul.You can NOT convince me that God wants us so focused on God that we ignore our home and family(both in the broad sense) here.I'm sorry you don't know any good,solid "Real Christians" who ARE taking good care of their soul AND the here and now.

[Return of Too Many Daves]

So where does that interpretation end? SHould we be eating our animal bretheren or not? I wish I could be vegetarian, unfortunately I have a cruel addiction, and that addiction ladies and gentleman is beef.

[Soundbear]

Hyperbole reigns. Oh well.

[Return of Too Many Daves]

Sorry, I'll step aside and let you get back to your hyperbollocks.

Oh well.

_________________________
The peas of christ

[Soundbear]

As my father used to say, thanks, and come again when you can't stay so long!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[starterwiz]

(Sigh)
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5702/1686

Oh no...sorry, this study is from an American University. It must be wrong tee hee.

starter, thanks for that article.
Here is my position on climate change.
The lack of consensus is not whether there is climate change happening. That is obvious. The question is whether we are causing it.

Using an analogy here: What if some scientists discover that Splenda (An artificial sweetener) causes genetic abnormalities in our offspring?

Other scientists dispute the findings. There are some controlled studies that seem to point in that diretion, and others that don't. Scientists hired by the food industry get in on the research and muddy the waters with their 'findings'. Other companies, eager to make money off of their alternative artificial sweetener get in on the action and they do all in their power to scare people away from Splenda in order to embrace their product.

How does the layman like me decide?

Well, whatever we decide, I will likely quit using Splenda until there is slam dunk evidence to clear Splenda's name. I would be foolish to think otherwise.

With our environmental question, we are dealing with implications that are more serious than the question posed above.

We ARE putting tons of dirt into the atmosphere daily.
Whether the planet has the ability to cleanse itself of all that dirt with 6 billion plus humans on the earth is doubtful.

We ARE wasteful consumers. And whether or NOT that waste has the kind of consequences that scientists say it will have; waste will have consequences. We reap what we sow. No question there.

If there is some evidence (albeit not conclusive) that humans are causing greenhouse gases, whether there is controversy or not, WE ARE BEING FOOLISH to not curtail the emissions that are causing it, while we continue to seek more evidence.

Whatever the science, I think the pressure to go green is good; Factories and industrialists will have to eventually clean up their act. Yes, the earth will be renewed one day, but we are still going to be held accountable for how we managed what God gave us.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.
I agree with the pope on this one. It is a moral duty.
(Yes, I drive a 4 cylinder)

[starterwiz]

Most scientists now believe that the earth is round.

Easy to find opposing articles should one choose to believe otherwise..
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

[Soundbear]

Starterwiz, Archimedes estimated the circumference of the earth 3000 years ago. He know it was a sphere.

[starterwiz]

This is old news?

Saw CBC's story on Superiors water levels.
There's 50% less ice coverage than there was in the 1900's, due to climate change. As a result, the water is evaporating at a faster rate in winter , than it's being refilled. Combine increased outflow in the St Claire with the effects of global warming, and it's easy to see the miles of shore-line land that used to dock boats.
The water lost in the last year from Superior equals all the water that all Canadians will use in 10 years time.

Superior was last frozen across in the 90's, but no-one expects that that will EVER happen again.

Hyberbole, scare tactics, and excessive media frenzy about the issue are most definately required to motivate 6 billion souls to action against what is most likely to be our final hurrah.

Actually, there was a 2nd possibility. Lake Superior's water is draining out of the St Clair river at a much faster level than before due to erosion. That was the 2nd possibility that the program mentioned.

AND, I saw the MacGuffins!

[KDawg]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: starterwiz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Hyberbole, scare tactics, and excessive media frenzy about the issue are most definately required to motivate 6 billion souls to action against what is most likely to be our final hurrah.</div></div>

Starterwiz, either you enjoy being lied to and made a fool of, or you think your smarter than everyone else and you need to resort to crap like that for the "greater good" because the rest of us dummies don't get it.

When has lying and distorting facts ever helped any cause? Give your head a shake.

[The 6th Member Of AC/DC]

And I suppose all these things happening to the earth are just coincidence or an evil plot of Al Gore's? Now I can imagine that there may be some cases where things are blown out of proportion but for instance you can't tell me that pollution and I am talking huge emissions, are not causing serious damage somehow....

[KDawg]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And I suppose all these things happening to the earth are just coincidence or an evil plot of Al Gore's?</div></div>
No. I don't think anybody here has ever said anything close to that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Now I can imagine that there may be some cases where things are blown out of proportion but for instance you can't tell me that pollution and I am talking huge emissions, are not causing serious damage somehow.... </div></div>
True, and we should all do our part to try to curb pollution, including getting involved in the politics of it, if you're into that. But we don't need to bend over while politicians try to tax us into oblivion and send our economy into the stone age, all in the name of "saving the planet," when the global warming could be due to natural causes like solar activity. Regardless of the commercials and public announcements you see on TV, that issue is NOT settled.

[starterwiz]

"Starterwiz, either you enjoy being lied to and made a fool of, or you think your smarter than everyone else and you need to resort to crap like that for the "greater good" because the rest of us dummies don't get it.

When has lying and distorting facts ever helped any cause? Give your head a shake."

Well aside from the obvious WOMD that got the US into Iraq, exageration of facts will only serve to speed the inevitable.

I believe that we need to tax this issue into oblivion.
Someone has to buy the remainder of the rain forests from those who are burning them to profit from the land. The land owners in South America have the right to turn "useless" forest land into crop producing fields, so someone is gonna have to pay them to keep it green.
Someone has to pay for the technology to replace our carbon burning plants and cars.

So luckily, we have a democracy, and the few that want 100% proof will be forced to pay, before the pudding is on the table.

I don't really care if I'm being made to look like a fool. I just think that human nature being what it is, it's going to take a lot of concentrated effort to bring about change, and the more it's in the public's face the sooner it may happen.