Christianity vital to democracy's future

[GenX]

"Even its most ardent opponents now concede grudgingly that religion is not about to wither away any time soon. One hundred and perhaps 200 years ago, there were hopes that this might come to pass, at least among the educated in the West. These hopes have died hard and for some it seems the disappointment is bitter indeed.

Authors such as Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, among others, are very angry about it. Our atheist friends evince any number of reasons to be angry with religion, and particularly with Christianity, but there is a disproportion to it all that makes one wary.

Why be angry at an absence? It leads me to wonder if some atheists are angry with God precisely because, by their lights, he does not exist. It is, after all, not unheard of for children to grow up angry at a father who is remote, absent, or unknown."

LINK (http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/christianity-vital-to-democracys-future/2007/10/29/1193618796958.html)

[Return of Too Many Daves]

I vote NO.

[Return of Too Many Daves]

Amen to that.

[GenX]

How sad.

You've now resorted to responding to your own posts, and showing whole-hearted agreement with them at that.

Why does 'shadow of former self' come to mind?

[Return of Too Many Daves]

What do you call that road around your sense of humour?

A road less traveled?
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Sometimes I slay me.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Return of Too Many Daves</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do you call that road around your sense of humour? </div></div>

A dead end.

[The Berean]

Religion might be important to democracy. Christianity is not.
Why on earth should Christanity, which uses a totally diferent form of governance, support democracy? It does not. Except in the minds of those who use Christianity for their own purposes, which automatically excludes them from being true belevers.

Conkat, there is an amazing correlation between Christian values and democracies. Check it out. You said,

Why on earth should Christanity, which uses a totally diferent form of governance, support democracy?

as long as we are on earth, it's the best we've got.
What sort of govt should we support while on earth? Are you advocating a theocracy? That's what the Muslims want.

Except in the minds of those who use Christianity for their own purposes, which automatically excludes them from being true belevers.

Huh?? Christians who support democracies are only interested in it for their own purposes? What are you talking about???

[Return of Too Many Daves]

He does make some generalisations, but I fear you do the same of Islam.

Nothing wrong with generalizations if they are correct.

[Return of Too Many Daves]

As long as they are acknowledged as generalisations I suppose. I think yours maybe slightly biased towards your faith and against others.

I suspect the majority of Muslims do not support a theocracy.

If you'll allow me I assume you might respond that those aren't REAL muslims. But then you have to ask are your ideas of what a REAL Christian is more liberal than what you define as a real muslim?

I am actually awaiting a response from ConKat. I am wondering why he assumes that real Christians would not support a democracy?

TMD, ask the average Muslim on the street in GB if they would like to see sharia law instituted in England. What would they say?

Ask the average Christian whether they would want to see Mosaic law instituted and overseen by a priesthood, what would they say?

Then you would have a fair comparison.
Why don't you do a survey?
Or does such a survey already exist?

[Return of Too Many Daves]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
TMD, ask the average Muslim on the street in GB if they would like to see sharia law instituted in England. What would they say?
</div></div>

None of the Muslims I've been friends with, but I realise that is not a good analysis.

[The Berean]

I cant believe that the church should have one form of government while believing the democarcy is "the best we've got" for the world.

Is it the best weve got because it works at overcomeing mans greed and sin? Too bad.


As far as those who use Christianity for their own purposes I immediatly think of the average American politician.

What kind of ecclesiastical govt do you hold to? Do you believe in an hierarchical episcopate? A Pope? The autonomy of the local church? plurality of elders? Congregational? Is there only one model of governance in Scripture?

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ConKat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I cant believe that the church should have one form of government while believing the democarcy is "the best we've got" for the world.

Is it the best weve got because it works at overcomeing mans greed and sin? Too bad.


As far as those who use Christianity for their own purposes I immediatly think of the average American politician.
</div></div>

Examples?

[The Berean]

Bush

[The Berean]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What kind of ecclesiastical govt do you hold to? Do you believe in an hierarchical episcopate? A Pope? The autonomy of the local church? plurality of elders? Congregational? Is there only one model of governance in Scripture?

</div></div>

Do you believe in an hierarchical episcopate? Wow big words. i dont think so.

A Pope? No

The autonomy of the local church? Yes

plurality of elders? Yes

Congregational? No

Is there only one model of governance in Scripture? Yes

Do you mind if I dig a little?

1. Where do you get the autonomy of the local church from?
2. Do you believe your church is free from the authority of tradition?
3. Although your church is not congregational in form, don't you think it is in function? What would happen if in your autonomous church, the elders decided something that 75% of the people disagreed with?

[The Berean]

Where do you get the autonomy of the local church from?

In scripture, there were those, like Paul, whose authority and words were respected, and obeyed. But when the apostles were gone, it seems to me that only the local church had it. Unless you think that someone took over that role.

2. Do you believe your church is free from the authority of tradition?

Please be more specific.

3. Although your church is not congregational in form, don't you think it is in function?

Actually it IS congregational in form BUT not in function.


What would happen if in your autonomous church, the elders decided something that 75% of the people disagreed with?

Something like that Happened once. A respected advisor was called in. investigated, told us what to do and left. The elders were out of touch and made a mistake. They resigned as a group. Deacons took over and eventually most of the elders were restored. Didnt affect the autonomy.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ConKat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where do you get the autonomy of the local church from?

In scripture, there were those, like Paul, whose authority and words were respected, and obeyed. But when the apostles were gone, it seems to me that only the local church had it. Unless you think that someone took over that role.
</div></div>

But there is no explicit teaching that makes 'the autonomy of the local church' a preferred model of governance. I wonder sometimes if 'autonomy' was an overreaction of the Baptists and other Protestant groups back at the beginning of their history, to the state church.

2. Do you believe your church is free from the authority of tradition?

Please be more specific.
____________

Well, I've been in churches where an elder waves his big ole KJV in the air and says (rather stentorian like)

"We have no constitution but the Bible" and
"We have no head but Jesus CHrist"

Meaning, "I am your leader and I will enforce my interpretation upon you."

That was in my mind when you reacted to the magisterium thread by saying that those who worship authority would want one.

Yet I see all kinds of independent movements (the Brethren and Baptists alike) who worship authority. We just SAY we we people of the Book, but more often than not, we aren't. We have our traditions and we have our authorities..

[Soundbear]

So it never happens in the AGC???

It happens everywhere, sometimes, and really has nothng to do with which bible is used or interpretation thereof.

Maybe the point was that some people LIKE to have someone telling them what to do. Makes them feel secure. "Just follow these rules, and you will be OK!!"