Hagee: Jesus Refused to Claim to be the Messiah

[KDawg]

John Hagee has a new book out called In Defense of Israel. In it he says, "Jesus refused, by word and deed, to claim to be the Messiah."

Youtube link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0K1GEs2gAI)

Now this is from his own website:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The Lord Jesus Christ
We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God. We believe in His substitutionary death for all men, His resurrection, and His eventual return to judge the world.</div></div>
link (http://www.jhm.org/beliefs.asp)

This man has I don't know how many followers, yet he makes a statement like Jesus is not the Messiah, contradicting what his whole ministry is based upon. Can this be called anything but evil?

His view I think is very wrong. And I think he knew that in order for his book to sell really well, he would make an outrageous claim.

One would probably have to read the comment in context to get just how he meant this. You realize that he is a huge ally and supporter of Israel? They will love him for this.

[Soundbear]

"Jesus refused, by word and deed, to claim to be the Messiah."

"Jesus is not the Messiah,.."

Seems to me there's quite a distance between these two statements.

[KDawg]

Doesn't the Bible address this very issue, that is, someone lying (Hagee is lying) about what the Bible teaches?

If this was anyone else, I would write it off as "he's just trying to sell a book," but Hagee is a pastor! I think this is evil.

And no doubt, Israel will love him for this book.

[Soundbear]

Then lets take his precise statement, exactly as it reads, and compare it to Scripture.

Did Hagee say that Jesus is not the Messiah??? Or is that just your interpretation??

BTW, I'm not a Hagee supporter.

There is a world of difference between lying and giving an interpretation.

I believe that Christ will rule on earth for a millennium, literally. Perhaps Barry does not. Does that mean one of us is lying? Or do we just differ in how to interpret a portion of Scripture?

This will be helpful:

Most people who see and hear the Rev. John C. Hagee are impressed. He is rotund, strident, authoritative (and could well pass for Rush Limbaugh’s older and more serious brother). His delivery alone gives the impression of one who really knows what he is talking about. However, careful evaluation of the teachings of Hagee, pastor at the San Antonio-based Cornerstone Church, reveals false teaching and a defective view of a basic and essential issue regarding salvation and the Gospel. Hagee preaches another way of salvation for the Jew, which is in direct violation of Paul’s warnings in Galatians 1:6-9.

This theological concept, which has many forms, is primarily referred to as the “Two Covenant” or “Dual Covenant” theory.

Hagee’s web site tells us that his “vision is for world evangelism. The burning passion of his heart is to win the lost to Jesus Christ in America and around the world.” That statement is not altogether true since he will not evangelize Jews and teaches salvation on another basis than the Gospel for the Jewish people.

Hagee has become extremely popular since the 1987 dedication of his Cornerstone Church (an event that featured an appearance and a blessing from W.A. Criswell, then pastor of First Baptist Church of Dallas) and because of the daily programs from Global Evangelism Television of which he is president. His best-selling books have also made him a celebrity. He associates with the likes of Benny Hinn and appears with him from time to time at crusades and other Charismatic congresses.

The Christian Research Institute panned Hagee’s 1996 book, Beginning of the End, not only for its premise that Yitzhak Rabin’s assassination triggered prophetic events and set the prophetic clock ticking somehow but because he falsely predicted that Shimon Peres would succeed Rabin. The later elections brought Benyamin Netanyahu to power.
- Source: The Other Gospel of John Hagee: Christian Zionism and Ethnic Salvation, by G. Richard Fisher, PFO

[KDawg]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Jesus refused, by word and deed, to claim to be the Messiah."

"Jesus is not the Messiah,.."

Seems to me there's quite a distance between these two statements. </div></div>

???
Barry, are you saying that Hagee thinks Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah, yet he thinks Jesus is the Messiah?

Here is more helpful information.

KDAwg, there are numerous Christians who hold to a dual kind of gospel, one for the Jew, (Peter) another for the Gentile. I think it is very wrong headed.. but there is segment out there who hold to this.

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/357-john-hagee-salvation

Having read the entire link, it appears that Hagee does not beleive in the dual covenant theory. He denies it all over the place, although the Jerusalem Post claimed he did.

Ah well. He is a prosperity type preacher, and that puts him on thin ice as it is.

[KDawg]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then lets take his precise statement, exactly as it reads, and compare it to Scripture.

Did Hagee say that Jesus is not the Messiah??? Or is that just your interpretation??

BTW, I'm not a Hagee supporter. </div></div>

No, in that youtube link, Hagee doesn't say that Jesus is not the Messiah, but he does say, "Jesus refused, by word and deed, to claim to be the Messiah."

John 4:25-26 says:
The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

My point is that Hagee is a pastor and knows what the Bible says. Millions of people are going to believe him because he is a pastor. What would you call that?

If I knew how to edit the topic title, I would.

[Soundbear]

Hagee said: "Jesus refused, by word and deed, to claim to be the Messiah."

By implication, I believe he meant by telling the Jews.

I suppose this is an arguable point. Jesus does not appear to have said to the Jews, "I am thr Messiah". He certainly showed them in many other ways exactly who He is.

By the way, in John 4:25-26, Jesus is not speaking to a Jew.

[Soundbear]

I do agree with Aydeloof. In many areas, he's on slippery ground.

[KDawg]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hagee said: "Jesus refused, by word and deed, to claim to be the Messiah."

By implication, I believe he meant by telling the Jews.

I suppose this is an arguable point. Jesus does not appear to have said to the Jews, "I am thr Messiah". He certainly showed them in many other ways exactly who He is.

By the way, in John 4:25-26, Jesus is not speaking to a Jew. </div></div>

Are you kidding? In John 4:25-26, the woman says she knows the Messiah is coming. Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

Jesus is plainly claiming to be the Messiah. Pastor Hagee says Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah. He is lying about what the Bible teaches and he knows better. That is evil because too many people will believe him.

What does the Bible say about this issue?

We would really need to read the book to do a proper analysis. Because actually Jesus claims to be the Messiah all over the place, by implication. The name Christ (anointed One) is virtually synonymous with the word Messiah.

This kind of argument is similar to denying that the Bible teaches the concept of the Trinity, simply because the word Trinity is not used. It's a bit simplistic.

Kdawg, theologians can be like lawyers. You'd be surprised how they can say something that appears to be totally contradictory, and yet mean something other than the conclusion you come to. You should read some of the latest papers coming out of the Roman Catholic and Evangelical dialogue. You'd swear you are reading stuff written by lawyers, things are so finely nuanced.

The efforts to find language in order to straddle middle ground is amazing,

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....Are you kidding? In John 4:25-26, the woman says she knows the Messiah is coming. Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

Jesus is plainly claiming to be the Messiah. Pastor Hagee says Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah. He is lying about what the Bible teaches and he knows better. That is evil because too many people will believe him.

What does the Bible say about this issue? </div></div>

What issue? Lying?? Come on.

Yes indeed, you are right, Jesus IS saying He is the Messiah.

TO A PERSON FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY, NOT A JEW!!!!

As Aydeloof says, sometimes we split hairs ad infinitum.

Now I'm going to go look at how many times Jesus claimed to be the Christ.

[Soundbear]

Was Jesus perfectly clear to the Jews exactly who He was?? I have never thought so, or been taught that.
Some verses that address this:


Matt 16:20
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.


Matt 26:63-64
63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


Luke 4:41
41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.


Luke 22:67
67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:


John 10:24-31
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Now these last verses show plainly that the Jews understood His claim to equality with God. Makes one wonder at the obscurity of His statements at other times.

[KDawg]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kdawg, theologians can be like lawyers. </div></div>

All the more reason to search the Bible for ourselves.

Wasn't it Shakespeare that said, "First we kill all the lawyers." /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[KDawg]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....Are you kidding? In John 4:25-26, the woman says she knows the Messiah is coming. Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

Jesus is plainly claiming to be the Messiah. Pastor Hagee says Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah. He is lying about what the Bible teaches and he knows better. That is evil because too many people will believe him.

What does the Bible say about this issue? </div></div>

What issue? Lying?? Come on.
</div></div>

The issue about someone teaching what is not in the Bible. Hagee knows what the Bible says regarding Jesus' claim to be the Messiah. He said that Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah.

I guess it's possible that Hagee doesn't know that the Bible teaches Jesus is the Messiah, but I doubt it. That makes him a liar.

[Soundbear]

As soon as he teaches something that is clearly NOT biblical, we'll discuss it.

I certainly wouldn't agree with such a thing.

You've got to allow for different interpretations.

After all, we don't say we are lying when we disagree with Speedy about the doctrine of transubstantiation. Yet Jesus said, "This is my body.."

Are we lying? Or interpreting that as a figure of speech?
Would Francis Schaeffer have been lying if he taught that the 6 days of creation actually represented aeons of time?

[KDawg]

I don't understand you two.

Hagee says, "Jesus refused, by word and deed, to claim to be the Messiah."

Does that statement contradict what the Bible teaches, or not?

My position (which I thought was obvious, based on Hagee's own words) is that he is clearly contradicting the Bible. He is teaching something that is CLEARLY NOT BIBLICAL.

And no, I don't believe those who differ on issues of interpretation are lying. This is not an issue of biblical interpretation.

BTW, in that youtube link, Hagee also says that his book will prove, "that Jesus did not come to earth to be the Messiah." Is that one also open to a different interpretation than what is obvious?

All I am saying, Kdawg, is that you need to hear his explanation in a fuller context before nailing the guy as a liar.

I agree with you. His statement, as it stands, is wrong. But I cannot condemn the guy as a liar based on a couple of snippets.

You could easily take one or two sentences out of what I have published, and call me a liar as well. Context can make a whole lot of difference.

[KDawg]

Point taken.

[GenX]

Case made for a Magisterium, again.

[GenX]

I am glad to see Hagee is finally shown to be the fraud he is. I watch this clown on TBN once in a while, just because his jaw-dropping, foaming-at-the-mouth anti-Catholicism is hilarious to witness. He's one of those "The Pope is the AntiChrist" pastors.

Forgive me, God, for the current schadenfreude.

[Batman]

My son has read john Hagge's previous book which was also published this year and shown me passages in it where Hagee makes clear statements that Jesus is the Messiah. now in his new book he says he isn't.

Not having read the new book all I can say is that Hagge is playing some kind of marketing game to sell books. He may very well be making the claims that he is quoted as making but the context may be very different. He may be trying to sell books to Christians to see if what his quotes are are really what he believes or not and/or he may be making those claims in promotional material so Jews will buy the book thinking it supports their position only to discover that he is leading them to the OT prophecies that refer to Jesus. Either way, I don't think we can trust the clips and promotional material. Unfortunally that leads to a mistrust of Hagee as well even if his publisher put him up to it.

Sadly, the only way we can know for sure is to read the book ourselves in order to evalute Hagee's position which is exactly what the publishers want us to do.

My son did make an atute observation though, " Hagee is one of those TBN guys so we should not be surprised really." This coming from a 16 year old. So will I be buying the book? I doubt it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Case made for a Magisterium, again. </div></div>

Speedy, are you aware of the great degree of differences with which Scriptures are interpreted between priests and cardinals??

Ask around if they are agreed on matters the likes of which we are discussing.

The magisterium does not keep the catholic priesthood from holding divergent views.

[KDawg]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Case made for a Magisterium, again. </div></div>

Because one pastor has it so obviously wrong, that only a cursory reading of the Bible can make the issue clear? Doubt it.

[Soundbear]

Kdawg, show us where in the bible Jesus claimed to a Jew to be the Messiah.

See this URL for a read on John 10, and the question of His claims to be the Messiah.
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/co...1&seq=i.50.10.2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/?action=getCommentaryText&cid=4&source=1&seq=i.50.10.2)

[KDawg]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kdawg, show us where in the bible Jesus claimed to a Jew to be the Messiah. </div></div>

From Aydeloof's link:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The opponents have asked Jesus about his identity as the Messiah, and in reply he has continued his claim to deity. If they had accepted Jesus' identity as somehow divine, as at least some sort of agent of God, then they would have been able to receive him as Messiah. Jesus does not claim to be Messiah in their understanding of that term, but all of his words and deeds have been those of the Messiah in truth. </div></div>

John 4:25-26 says:
The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

Jesus claimed to be the Messiah. Period. Barry, I don't understand the importance you want to give to the distinction of whether He claimed it to a Jew or not.

[Soundbear]

John 4:25-26 says:
The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

If you see no significance in the fact that He said this to a person of another country, a woman, and of a heritage hated by the Jews, then I think your understanding is somewhat limited.

[Soundbear]

Aydeloof said: "Jesus does not claim to be Messiah in their understanding of that term,.."

Hagee said, ""Jesus refused, by word and deed, to claim to be the Messiah."

I don't see a lot of distance between those statements.

And did Jesus come to earth at that point to be the Messiah AS THE JEWS UNDERSTOOD/WANTED Him to be?? No.

Aydeloof said (actually cited a commentary): "Jesus does not claim to be Messiah in their understanding of that term,.."

Hagee said, ""Jesus refused, by word and deed, to claim to be the Messiah."

BArry said: I don't see a lot of distance between those statements.

There is a great deal of distance between those 2 statements, because Jesus IN DEED i.e. in His actions, claimed to be the Messiah (take his riding into Jerusalem on a donkey, for an instance). That's what the fulfillment of the prophecies were all about.

[KDawg]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">John 4:25-26 says:
The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

If you see no significance in the fact that He said this to a person of another country, a woman, and of a heritage hated by the Jews, then I think your understanding is somewhat limited. </div></div>

Admittedly, my understanding is limited, so please explain what you mean.

I think the best explanation is the simplest one. Jesus did claim to be the Messiah (not to a Jew, but He is EVERYONE'S Messiah, regardless of who heard Him speak the words). Hagee said, "Jesus refused, by word and deed, to claim to be the Messiah."

What Hagee says is diametrically opposed to what the Bible teaches.

[KDawg]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Aydeloof said: "Jesus does not claim to be Messiah in their understanding of that term,.."

Hagee said, ""Jesus refused, by word and deed, to claim to be the Messiah."

I don't see a lot of distance between those statements.

And did Jesus come to earth at that point to be the Messiah AS THE JEWS UNDERSTOOD/WANTED Him to be?? No. </div></div>

Barry, the full quote was "Jesus does not claim to be Messiah in their understanding of that term, but all of his words and deeds have been those of the Messiah in truth.

The distance between that and what Hagee says is so great, you have to call them opposites of each other.

Because the Jews didn't see Jesus as the Messiah, doesn't change the fact that He was -- it speaks to the Jews inability to understand, not Jesus' purpose.

[Soundbear]

OK.

Because the Jews didn't see Jesus as the Messiah, doesn't change the fact that He was -- it speaks to the Jews inability to understand, not Jesus' purpose.

KDawg, You nailed it.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Case made for a Magisterium, again. </div></div>

Speedy, are you aware of the great degree of differences with which Scriptures are interpreted between priests and cardinals??

Ask around if they are agreed on matters the likes of which we are discussing.

The magisterium does not keep the catholic priesthood from holding divergent views.
</div></div>

That is an open-ended statement which attempts to make it difficult to refute; but in actuality it is very easy to refute, because it is so elemental in its presupposition.

There are not divergent views on basic Catholic theology. I ask you, now, to show me one.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Case made for a Magisterium, again. </div></div>

Because one pastor has it so obviously wrong, that only a cursory reading of the Bible can make the issue clear? Doubt it. </div></div>

Only one pastor has it wrong?

Then why have 40,000 different Protestant denominations?

[The Berean]

And there are not divergent views on basic protestant theology.

And I don't understand why there are at least 14 Roman churches in this city. Very few if any of which are anywhere near ful. Could save thousnds by closing to say 3.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ConKat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And there are not divergent views on basic protestant theology.

And I don't understand why there are at least 14 Roman churches in this city. Very few if any of which are anywhere near ful. Could save thousnds by closing to say 3.
</div></div>

Do you go into these churches and take a head count?

There may be 14 churches, but they all believe the SAME thing.

Go to 14 different Protestant churches in the city, you'll get 14 different interpretations, some fundamental, some not.

[The Berean]

Basic speedo, basic.

forget it.

[GenX]

I know you can't defend the indefensible.

Don't fret, no one can.

[The Berean]

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[GenX]

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