Perhaps a good purpose statement.....

[BTO]

for any BBS with religion boards specifically in mind. Taken from John Piper's The Future of Justification - A Response to NT Wright" available online.


The Final Judgment feels too close for me to care much about scoring points in debate. Into my seventh decade, the clouds of time are clearing, and the prospect of wasting my remaining life on gamesmanship
or one-upmanship is increasingly unthinkable. The ego-need to be right has lost its dominion, and the quiet desire to be a faithful steward of the grace of truth increases.

The risen Lord Jesus sees through all our clever turns of phrase—I am preaching to myself. He knows perfectly when we have chosen words to win, but not to clarify. He has planted a banner on the pulpit of every preacher and on the desk of every scholar: “No man can give the impression that he himself is clever and that Christ is mighty to save.”1 We will give an account to the all-knowing, all-ruling Lord of the universe in a very few years—or days. And when we do, what will matter is that we have not peddled God’s word but “as men of sincerity,
as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ” (2 Cor. 2:17).

[Return of Too Many Daves]

I bet he'd be thrilled you've used these comments in a game of one-upmanship.

[Soundbear]

And what did you just do, TMD?? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

BTO, good post, and too often right.

Welcome back, BTO.
Knowing one's self and one's motives is very important in this business.

[Return of Too Many Daves]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And what did you just do, TMD?? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

BTO, good post, and too often right. </div></div>

I have no problem with it. The conflict was between the content of the quote and the use of it.

Oh and what did you just do BM? Nurr nurr.

[BTO]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Return of Too Many Daves</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I bet he'd be thrilled you've used these comments in a game of one-upmanship. </div></div>

Well this reflection on your part is actually one of the reasons for me posting this. I've used this line of judging motives (if you posted with something other in mind than this please forgive me) too many times myself which is but _one_ other reason of many reasons for posting this. Truth (or even untruth for that matter) getting home to another often gets lost or never reaches its intended target because of our overwhelming desire to be right .....no matter the cost.
I think Piper is right on.


1 Cor. 4:7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

I would posit that it can be very difficult to differentiate between a game of one-upmanship and a sincere desire to share what one perceives as truth in a single post.

I can share something that is true, for all the wrong reasons, and you may not be able to discern my ego-filled reasons in the post itself.

Over time, you might come to the realization that I am a glory hog..

On the other hand, if I am on a quest for truth, whether someone posts something that corresponds with reality out of ego needs or not, it shouldn't deter me from accepting what is posted. Otherwise I would be committing the genetic fallacy.

I have often accepted someone else's assertion, regardless of his obvious motive to beat me in an intellectual peeing contest. (I will not mention names... /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

On the other hand, people have made reference to my pompous attitude that seems to show itself on occasion, which often causes me to reflect and correct, if found to be true.

[BTO]

Yes, well put Ay. I quoted from 1 Cor. 4 above and I found the immediate context quite pertinant to what I'm trying to say. Paul was acknowledging it seems a truly gifted people who had puffed themselves up; well Paul seemed to be saying there is a better way. It seems there was a pompous attitude in Corinth and Paul strove to get them to react in precisely the way you (as above) choose to react when exposed. But isn't Corinth's (for example) kind of attitude (pompous) detrimental to the cause of Christ? I think so. I'm not so sure discerning whether a game of oneupmanship is being played or not is as important as internalizing my motives myself, my desire etc. so that I might be a more effective witness for Christ. Do I take time to do this before ripping off an answer. Do I give a chance for my blood to settle etc. To make sure I do not put any stumbling block in the path of my listener through my egotistic and prideful ways. Wouldn't that go further to ensuring a positive benefit be had by my listener rather than chancing that he'll get it regardless of my motives, my attitude, my 100%, bang on rightness on any given subject? And Piper's point seems to be that internalizing the truth that God sees the heart (and it's motives) and one day giving an account to Him should be cause for us check our faulty (if that be the case) dispositions, egos etc. at the door before dealing with others.

Actually, I think being genuine and having a right motive is simple. Not easy, but simple, if you catch the distinction.

Untangling evil, or sinful tendencies is complex.

I am coming to a place where I I don't NEED to convince anyone of anything. If God is going to use my words to convince anyone of anything, that's his business.

So I tend not to let my blood pressure be affected much by these discussions anymore. I do not NEED anyone to like me or agree with me. If they do, it's a bonus, but if they don't, c'est la vie.

And that, I think has less to do with a careless attitude than simply growing up... or is that growing down; i.e becoming more child-like in the upper end of my middle years /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

If I understand your post rightly, I think you misread mine.
I AM responsible for MY motives.

What I was saying is that I cannot disregard someone else's post merely because their motives are ego driven.

I have listened to many a teacher whose EGO was very obviously a factor in HOW they said something. But what they said may have still been true, so I dared not disregard what they said.

[BTO]

I don't _think_ I misread your post. I think we are talking two issues here. I think all I am concerned with is that _as a Christian_ and as a steward of the Word of God I must strive to make sure my motives aren't ego driven. Then I've done my part. How I'm taken....well I think if I have learned anything at all it is that I have learned/am learning not to have expectations. _If_ there is anything worthwhile He gets the glory. His Word doesn't return void. His purposes are accomplished.

To quote Piper again as from above: "And when we do, what will matter is that we have not peddled God’s word but “as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ” (2 Cor. 2:17).

I think I was just expounding on this. I hope I was anyways. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

OK, I gotcha..

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have often accepted someone else's assertion, regardless of his obvious motive to beat me in an intellectual peeing contest. </div></div>

Aydeloof as martyr alert...Aydeloof as martyr alert!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif

[The Berean]

You make the anal retentve look good parrot.

I confess it must be one up man ship. speedy certainly cant debate.

[GenX]

First tell me what "retentve" is, then I'll tell you if I agree or not.

[The Berean]

Agree??

Who cares??