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Thread: The RCC thread

  1. #1
    BlueSky
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    Default The RCC thread

    Because this is newsworthy..

    Call for Pope to step down
    Attacks on Pope Benedict XVI's decision to lift the excommunication of a Holocaust denier escalated Monday, with one theologian calling on him to step down as the head of the Roman Catholic Church. Criticism following the pope's January 24 announcement has been particularly cutting in Germany, where denying the Holocaust is a crime punishable with a jail sentence.
    "If the pope wants to do some good for the Church, he should leave his job," eminent liberal Catholic theologian Hermann Haering told the German daily Tageszeitung.
    "That would not be a scandal, a bishop has to relinquish his position at 75 years, a cardinal loses his rights at 80 years," he said. Pope Benedict is 81.
    Meanwhile, a senior Vatican official acknowledged the Vatican administration may have made "management errors" with the decision to lift excommunication against four bishops, including Richard Williamson, whose comments sparked the controversy.
    "I observe the debate with great concern. There were misunderstandings and management errors in the Curia," said Cardinal Walter Kasper, who is in charge of the Vatican department that deals with Jewish relations.
    "The Pope wanted to open the debate because he wanted unity inside and outside," the German cardinal told Vatican Radio.
    He also noted that "these bishops are still suspended."
    An international uproar followed the decision to rehabilitate Williamson, an English bishop who has dismissed as "lies" historical evidence that six million Jews were gassed by the Nazis during World War II. Jews and Catholics alike have produced widespread criticism.
    "A pardon that tastes of poison," wrote Franco Garelli, an expert in religious history, in Italy's daily La Stampa Monday.
    "The trouble caused by this complicated affair is evident not only outside the Church but within it," wrote the academic, who spoke of the "profound discomfort stirred up by the lifting of the excommunication in numerous Catholic circles."
    Back in Germany, high-ranking Catholic officials said the pope risked losing vital support.
    "There is obviously a loss of confidence" in the pope and "rehabilitating a denier is always a bad idea," the bishop of Hamburg, Werner Thissen, told the daily Hamburger Abendblatt on Monday.
    The bishop of Rottenburg-Stuttgart, Gebhard Furst, meanwhile spoke of his "uncertainty, incomprehension and deception" in the national Bild.
    In France, home to Europe's largest Jewish population, chief rabbi Gilles Bernheim denounced Williamson's remarks as "despicable" in an interview with Le Monde.
    Williamson claimed that only between 200,000 and 300,000 Jews died before and during World War II, and none in the gas chambers.
    French government spokesman Luc Chatel called Williamson's remarks "unacceptable, abject and intolerable."
    In Austria, where Pope Benedict last week named a controversial ultra-conservative priest as auxiliary bishop in Linz, criticism also came from within the Church.
    Vienna's cardinal and archbishop, Christoph Schoenborn, on Sunday lashed out at the decision to bring Williamson back into the fold, saying that "he who denies the Holocaust cannot be rehabilitated within the Church."
    Belgian daily La Libre Belgique slammed the Vatican's "blindness" and "deafness," drawing links between Williamson and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
    "Apparently no one can make the Iranian president and his henchman see reason" when they deny the "truth" of the Holocaust, and it is the same with the "bishop recently anointed by the highest authority of the Catholic Church," it said.
    For the pope, the "blunder is extraordinary, especially given that his willingness for a dialogue with Judaism is indisputable," said French daily Liberation.


    http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

    How often does an Archbishop speak out against the Pope?

  2. #2
    GRUMPY
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    Default Re: The RCC thread

    [QUOTE=BlueSky;401346]
    "The Pope wanted to open the debate"

    That he did.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: The RCC thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keebler View Post
    What does this truly effect, besides perhaps the Church's image, or people's perception of it?

    What's the significance of any of this?
    Millions of Roman Catholics are affected, when their leader is asked to resign.

    Millions of Jews are concerned about his actions.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: The RCC thread

    Vatican: Holocaust denier must recant
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090204/...u_vatican_jews

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    Default Re: The RCC thread

    "Black prince of Hell, in fire he reigns. Your God above, wrapped up in chains. There is no love, when worlds collide. Deliver us to evil, when God has died. - Exodus "

    No logic there. A band trying to make a buck, nothing more.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: The RCC thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keebler View Post
    How are they affected? What in their lives changes because of it?



    What do his actions change? What could his actions even potentially set the stage for?

    Jews to have a reason to complain about persecution?
    Do you trust someone?? If they make an error in judgement on a serious issue, does it bother you at all??

    You may not think the Pope has any affect on the world, because in your world he does not. But to others he does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by almabear View Post
    Vatican: Holocaust denier must recant
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090204/...u_vatican_jews
    "The Vatican also said in a statement that Pope Benedict XVI didn't know about Bishop Richard Williamson's views when he agreed to lift his excommunication and that of three other ultraconservative bishops Jan. 21."

    That's nuts. I can't believe the Pope wouldn't at least check as to why the guy was excommunicated, and try to find out if he repented.

  8. #8
    BlueSky
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    Default Re: The RCC thread

    Barry, he was not excommunicated for his views on the holocaust. The Pope KNEW why the guy was excommunicated, and he certainly repented on that level.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Slow's Avatar
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    Default Re: The RCC thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Morris View Post
    Millions of Roman Catholics are affected, when their leader is asked to resign.
    Asked by whom?

    I know of thousands of people that would like him to resign (liberal Catholics, anti-Catholics, etc).
    On the Shootout in Hockey: "It's like throwing a football through a ring. That's no way to end a game." - Fabian Joseph, captain of Team Canada

  10. #10
    BlueSky
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    Default Re: The RCC thread

    I think this was an archbishop in Vienna that we were talking about.
    See first post.

    Whoops. I just checked myself. Slow, you were right. It was a liberal theologian who is calling for his resignation, not the Viennese priest although the archbishop certainly criticized the move..

    "If the pope wants to do some good for the Church, he should leave his job," eminent liberal Catholic theologian Hermann Haering told the German daily Tageszeitung. "That would not be a scandal, a bishop has to relinquish his position at 75 years, a cardinal loses his rights at 80 years,"
    Last edited by BlueSky; 02-04-2009 at 10:44 AM.

  11. #11
    Senior Member IMHO's Avatar
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    Default Re: The RCC thread

    Does the popes decsion indicate to the rest of us that all sins are forgiven? Is he practicing what he preaches? Did he get legal councel first? What reason does the pope give for his actions?

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    Senior Member Anapeg's Avatar
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    Default Re: The RCC thread

    "Belgian daily La Libre Belgique slammed the Vatican's "blindness" and "deafness," "
    At least my stance is not without sympathisers. This is yet one more step in regression which the church and followers will find a way to quietly dispense and ignore.
    A friend stationed in Afghanistan has retired and stayed on, opening a bomb plant that makes ordinance that look like prayer mats. Profits are through the roof.

  13. #13
    BlueSky
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    Default Re: The RCC thread

    Anapeg, I don't think you can say the church is ignoring this. In fact, all news reports indicate they are paying close attention, and the Pope has had his spokeman make efforts to explain.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Anapeg's Avatar
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    Default Re: The RCC thread

    Mark my words Blue, mark my words.
    A friend stationed in Afghanistan has retired and stayed on, opening a bomb plant that makes ordinance that look like prayer mats. Profits are through the roof.

  15. #15
    BlueSky
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    Default Re: The RCC thread

    Anapeg, did you read the article? It starts with the following words:

    VATICAN CITY – The Vatican on Wednesday demanded that a prelate who denied the Holocaust recant his positions before being fully admitted as a bishop into the Roman Catholic Church.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Anapeg's Avatar
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    Default Re: The RCC thread

    VATICAN CITY – The Vatican on Wednesday demanded that a prelate who denied the Holocaust recant his positions before being fully admitted as a bishop into the Roman Catholic Church.

    Recanting his position and rethinking his position are not the same. As has been pointed out ad nauseam to me, humans are weak and prone to failure. You cannot know what is in the persons mind. People will tell you anything you wish to hear to achieve that which they want. What is in their heart of hearts will be forever secret except to those they choose to open up to. The bile they choose to spew is merely done where it is safe, or they can remain anonymous. Anyone believing less is being naive.
    A friend stationed in Afghanistan has retired and stayed on, opening a bomb plant that makes ordinance that look like prayer mats. Profits are through the roof.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: The RCC thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueSky View Post
    Barry, he was not excommunicated for his views on the holocaust. The Pope KNEW why the guy was excommunicated, and he certainly repented on that level.
    "...to lift the excommunication of a Holocaust denier.."

    I'm trying to find in the links just why he was excommunicated.

    If you have something???

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueSky View Post
    I think this was an archbishop in Vienna that we were talking about.
    See first post.

    Whoops. I just checked myself. Slow, you were right. It was a liberal theologian who is calling for his resignation, not the Viennese priest although the archbishop certainly criticized the move..
    "liberal theologian" Not a Roman Catholic??

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anapeg View Post
    VATICAN CITY – The Vatican on Wednesday demanded that a prelate who denied the Holocaust recant his positions before being fully admitted as a bishop into the Roman Catholic Church.

    Recanting his position and rethinking his position are not the same. As has been pointed out ad nauseam to me, humans are weak and prone to failure. You cannot know what is in the persons mind. People will tell you anything you wish to hear to achieve that which they want. What is in their heart of hearts will be forever secret except to those they choose to open up to. The bile they choose to spew is merely done where it is safe, or they can remain anonymous. Anyone believing less is being naive.

    Yes, it certainly HAS been pointed out how weak huamns are. And we can't know their minds. In fact, I'm very sure that you will never find two people who agree exactly the same way on every theological issue.

    So the point is not what he thinks, but what he will do. And that doing would be to submit to the authority of his leader and not to preach/publish contrary views.

    What he THINKS is between him and God.

  20. #20
    BlueSky
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    Default Re: The RCC thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Morris View Post
    "...to lift the excommunication of a Holocaust denier.."

    I'm trying to find in the links just why he was excommunicated.

    If you have something???
    I believe he was ordained by a renegade priest who would not accept the precepts of Vatican II

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