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Thread: Best ever

  1. #1
    Senior Member Oscar_Leroy's Avatar
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    Default Best ever

    I think this will spark some interesting debate so I thought I would ask:

    Who is the best hockey player ever and why?

    I pick Mark Messier. He could de everything. He scored, checked, assisted, fought sometimes, and was a great leader and clutch performer. Many would think he lived in Gretzky's shadow, but would the Oilers have won as much as they did without guys like Messier?

    Thoughts?

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    Default Re: Best ever

    You mean you want to talk to me....no one else really gets involved cause they'll have to take a shot or two.
    The best ever without stats is an opinion.
    When you use stats you create a fact.
    The facts are, the best ever played 1487 games, scored 894 goal and 1963 assists for a total of 2857 points.
    THAT..is a awfully big shadow, regardless who you are or what you did.
    The best player ever is an easy one, it's Wayne Gretzky....hands down!

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    Default Re: Best ever

    You have to take Gretz out of the players you can pick.
    .........how can you pick anyone else?

    http://www.gretzky.com/hockey/nhl_records.php

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    Senior Member Oscar_Leroy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best ever

    Maybe in terms of offensive skill he was the best. But when it comes to best player overall in terms of scoring, checking, assisting, leading, winning. Gretzky won four cups. Messier won 6. Messier was the only player to captain two teams to the cup. Who would you rather build a team around? I think in terms of building a team around a player it's 50/50 between Messier and Gretzky as you could make a strong case for either.

    Would Gretzky have been so good if he didn't have the unwritten rule? Semenko and Mcsorley made it clear that he was untouchable. Mcsorley even followed him to LA.

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    Default Re: Best ever

    One more thing...
    Show me an athlete in any sport that dominated like Gretzky did.
    He was the most dominate athlete of all time!

    Highest Goals in a Season - 92
    Previous highest goals in a season 76. A 21% increase.

    Highest assists in a season - 163.
    Previous highest assists in a season - 102. A 60% increase.

    Highest points in a season - 215.
    Previous highest points in a season - 152. A 41% increase.

    Nobody in any sport has ever done anything close!
    Last edited by Jack Butler; 01-18-2010 at 07:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Best ever

    Teams win cups.....
    If I get first pick, I take Wayne!

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    Senior Member Oscar_Leroy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best ever

    But what if Gretzky did not have the protection? Messier made his own space, and was tough as nails. Gretzky had the unwritten rule protecting him from all contact. Yes he was the best in terms of offense, but was he clutch? First cup Messier won the Conn Smythe. Many people thought Messier would not be able win without Gretzky, but he did. Twice. What did Gretzky win after he left the Oilers?

    Yes teams do win cups, but look at all the cup winning teams, they all have that leader to push them over the top. Pittsburgh had Lemieux and Francis, Jersey had Stevens, Detroit had Yzerman, Colorado had Sakic. LA, St Louis, NY Rangers all had Gretzky and never made it all the way and ge had great teams in LA and St Louis. Sure Gretzky could score a lot and rck up the points, but was that enough to win? You could argue that if you put a team together that is good enough to win and take Gretzky out of the picture they would still win. It happened in Edmonton. I'm not sure if the same can be said about Messier, as he would be their clear leader.

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    Default Re: Best ever

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar_Leroy View Post
    But what if Gretzky did not have the protection?
    You have to stop using if.....please stop using IF!

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    Default Re: Best ever

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar_Leroy View Post
    But what if Gretzky did not have the protection? Messier made his own space, and was tough as nails. Gretzky had the unwritten rule protecting him from all contact. Yes he was the best in terms of offense, but was he clutch? First cup Messier won the Conn Smythe. Many people thought Messier would not be able win without Gretzky, but he did. Twice. What did Gretzky win after he left the Oilers?

    Yes teams do win cups, but look at all the cup winning teams, they all have that leader to push them over the top. Pittsburgh had Lemieux and Francis, Jersey had Stevens, Detroit had Yzerman, Colorado had Sakic. LA, St Louis, NY Rangers all had Gretzky and never made it all the way and ge had great teams in LA and St Louis. Sure Gretzky could score a lot and rck up the points, but was that enough to win? You could argue that if you put a team together that is good enough to win and take Gretzky out of the picture they would still win. It happened in Edmonton. I'm not sure if the same can be said about Messier, as he would be their clear leader.
    There were more complete players than Gretzky...he was just "The Best"...or more appropriately...." The G.O.A.T.!

  10. #10
    Senior Member Oscar_Leroy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best ever

    You mean he was the greatest offensive player of all time. When it comes to greatest of all time I would think a complete player would have to take the title. Messier could do it all. Gretzky could it all when it came to offense but relied on others to do the dirty work. How is that the greatest of all time when he relied heavily on others to fill the voids in his game? Gretzky also had the benefit of playing most of his career in the 80's and early 90's avoiding the Garth Snow over sized goalies and the dead puck era. So you could say he was in the right place at the right time - surrounded by an unbelievable cast of players in an incredibly offensive era in the game. Not trying to diminish the success he had, but it's worth thinking about.

    As for using 'if' in my arguments. You have to admit Gretzky had a lot of protection. His protection followed him to LA. Why do you think Mcsorley was traded to LA in the big deal? I'm sure it wasn't because the team was interested in his offensive flair. Truth is, LA knew Mcsorley would protect Gretzky, as did the rest of the league. Why wouldn't you push to get a player that has made it known that even looking at Gretzky the wrong way will not be tolerated? Gretzky needed these guys to succeed, otherwise everybody in the league would have been all over him, he would have no room to breathe. I think this makes it perfectly reasonable to say what IF Gretzky didn't have that protection he relied on so much? It was an obvious hole in his game that was filled by other players, and when a deficiency like that exists it does leave a lot of room for debate.

    I would say this is more accurate:

    Gretzky - Best offensive player of all time
    Messier - Best all round player
    Last edited by Oscar_Leroy; 01-18-2010 at 02:43 AM.

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    Default Re: Best ever

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar_Leroy View Post
    Best offensive player
    Best all round player
    You changed your criteria.
    Gretzky was the best ever...whatever!
    Gretzky +/- 516 in 1478 games.
    Messier +/- 210 in 1756 games.
    That's more than double, Oscar.
    Like I said, if I get first pick, it's Wayne!

  12. #12
    Senior Member Oscar_Leroy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best ever

    I didn't change the criteria at all, jut making a point. If a player were to shadow Gretzky an entire game would Gretzky be able to handle it? If Gretzky did not have the protection of a guy like Semenko of Mcsorley any team in the league would have had as many people as they could shadowing him. Would Gretzky power though this? Not as well as a Messier type player. Messier could dominate with offense and physicality on any given night. If a player were to shadow him they would often get a nice elbow from Messier. He made his own space. Gretzky had other do it for him. Is having another player fill in for your deficiencies really the qualities of the best player ever? Again, sure he was the greatest offensive player ever, but is the best player one that would be based purely on offense rather than an all round game. We are after all discussing the best hockey player ever, not the best offensive hockey player ever.

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    Default Re: Best ever

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar_Leroy View Post
    I didn't change the criteria at all, jut making a point. If a player were to shadow Gretzky an entire game would Gretzky be able to handle it? If Gretzky did not have the protection of a guy like Semenko of Mcsorley any team in the league would have had as many people as they could shadowing him. Would Gretzky power though this? Not as well as a Messier type player. Messier could dominate with offense and physicality on any given night. If a player were to shadow him they would often get a nice elbow from Messier. He made his own space. Gretzky had other do it for him. Is having another player fill in for your deficiencies really the qualities of the best player ever? Again, sure he was the greatest offensive player ever, but is the best player one that would be based purely on offense rather than an all round game. We are after all discussing the best hockey player ever, not the best offensive hockey player ever.
    You're guessing.
    I'm done.....whatever!

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    Senior Member Oscar_Leroy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best ever

    I'm not guessing. I'm asking a question. It is perfectly fine to argue with an if. Truth is, you know that if Gretzky did nit have the unwritten rule he would have not had the success he did. Yes he was very successful, but he would not have had that level of success if he were not so untouchable. Hypothetical or not, it is an argument that you obviously cannot defend. You cannot just look at stats and say Gretzky is best. Stats say that Messier managed to win 2 more cups without Gretzky. Stats also say that after Gretzky left the Oilers, he had no such success. Stats also say that Messier is he only player to captain two teams to a cup.

    Something else to think about. Lemieux had a higher PPG than Gretzky but was limited to far less time on the ice sue to illness. Lemieux also came back in the dead puck era and still managed to keep a higher PPG than Gretzky, so would that not make Lemieux the most effective offensive player of all time? I know you hate ifs but IF Lemieux had not developed such a serious illness he very well may have been better than Gretzky. Stats don't tell the whole story, only part of it.

    In my opinion the best player must have offensive skill, defensive skill, physical play, and a successful career. Gretzky has 2 1/2 out of 4 of those categories. Are those really the attributes of the best player ever? Again I will admit that Gretzky was the best OFFENSIVE player, but he could be physically dominated. He actually finished lat on his team in strength tests. The best player would be efficient in all areas of the game would he not?

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    Default Re: Best ever

    You got my answer.......!!!
    Teams win cups, so 2 more only means so much.
    Would Messier have the same impact, "if" he was the one that got traded?
    How many cups would the Oilers won "if" Gretz didn't get traded
    You see how the word "if" makes thing go in circles?
    Using an "if replaces something that did happen, with something that didn't.
    One more time....If I get first pick, I pick Wayne!

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    Default Re: Best ever

    During the 83-84 season Wayne collected 61 goal 92 assists for 153 points in just 51 games...a new mark for the longest streak.
    Wayne scored 212 points in 81-82, 205 in 83-84, 208 in 84-85 and in 85-86 he had 215.
    In 82-83 he fell 4 points shy of 200 with 196.
    Lemieux is the only player even close to hitting 200 with 199.
    With numbers like that, it doesn't matter what another player can or can't do.
    I think you have to take Gretzky out of the picks to have a discussion.
    He even effected the poolies....if I remember correctly, you couldn't pick Gretz!
    When has that ever happened before or after.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Best ever

    Is that how we judge the best though? Just by scoring ability? Messier is second all time and has won more championships. I would have thought winning it all a higher number of times would hold some weight. Take Scott Niedermayer for example, he has won everywhere. He's won with the Devils, Ducks, Team Canada etc. No other player has won at as many levels as he has. He is the most decorated player. Would you say Bobby Orr is better just because he was better at scoring? Gretzky depended on others to fill his voids, to me when a player depends on others that much, it would be a stretch to say he is the best. Best offensive player, yes. Best overall, No. Watch Gretzky take a really hard hit in a game and see where he ends up. Watch Messier take the same hit and it would be a different story. Messier may not have scored as much, but he scored when it counted. Can you ask for much more from a player?

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    Default Re: Best ever

    Until someone passes 2857, or can come even close to this...
    1979-80 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
    1979-80 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
    1980-81 NHL Art Ross Trophy
    1980-81 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
    1981-82 NHL Art Ross Trophy
    1981-82 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
    1981-82 NHL Lester B. Pearson Trophy
    1982-83 NHL Art Ross Trophy
    1982-83 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
    1982-83 NHL Lester B. Pearson Trophy
    1983-84 NHL Art Ross Trophy
    1983-84 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
    1983-84 NHL Lester B. Pearson Trophy
    1984-85 NHL Art Ross Trophy
    1984-85 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
    1984-85 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
    1984-85 NHL Lester B. Pearson Trophy
    1985-86 NHL Art Ross Trophy
    1985-86 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
    1986-87 NHL Art Ross Trophy
    1986-87 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
    1986-87 NHL Lester B. Pearson Trophy
    1987-88 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
    1988-89 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
    1989-90 NHL Art Ross Trophy
    1990-91 NHL Art Ross Trophy
    1990-91 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
    1991-92 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
    1993-94 NHL Art Ross Trophy
    1993-94 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
    1998-99 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy

    Here's Messiers
    1887 points
    1983-84 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
    1989-90 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
    1989-90 NHL Lester B. Pearson Trophy
    1991-92 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
    1991-92 NHL Lester B. Pearson Trophy

    Care to compare anyone else...Ha, Ha, Ha!

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    Default Re: Best ever

    Career Records

    * MOST POINTS:
    2,856 (1,485 games, 894 goals, 1,962 assists)
    Second: Mark Messier - 1,855 (1,756 games, 694 goals, 1,193 assists)
    * MOST POINTS, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS:
    3,238 (2,856 regular season and 382 playoff)
    Second: Mark Messier - 2,180 (1,885 regular season and 295 playoff)
    * MOST GOALS:
    894
    Second: Gordie Howe, 801
    * MOST GOALS, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS:
    1,016 (894 regular season and 122 playoff)
    Second: Gordie Howe, 869 (801 regular season and 68 playoff)
    * MOST ASSISTS:
    1,962
    Second: Mark Messier, 1,171
    * MOST ASSISTS, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS:
    2,222 (1,962 regular season and 260 playoff)
    Second: Mark Messier, 1,357 (1,171 regular season and 186 playoff)
    * MOST GOALS BY A CENTER:
    894
    Second: Marcel Dionne, 731
    * MOST ASSISTS BY A CENTER:
    1,962
    Second: Mark Messier, 1,171
    * MOST POINTS BY A CENTER:
    2,856
    Second: Mark Messier, 1,855
    * MOST 40-OR-MORE GOAL SEASONS:
    12
    Second: Marcel Dionne, 10
    * MOST CONSECUTIVE 40-OR-MORE GOAL SEASONS:
    12 (1979-80 to 1990-91)
    Second: Mike Bossy, 9 (1977-78 to 1985-86)
    * MOST 50-OR-MORE GOAL SEASONS:
    9 (tied with Mike Bossy)
    Second: Guy Lafleur, 6
    * MOST 60-OR-MORE GOAL SEASONS:
    5 (tied with Mike Bossy)
    Second: Phil Esposito, 4
    * MOST CONSECUTIVE 60-OR-MORE GOAL SEASONS:
    4 (1981-82 to 1984-85)
    Second: Mike Bossy, 3 (1980-81 to 1982-83)
    * MOST 100-OR-MORE POINT SEASONS:
    15
    Second: Mario Lemieux, 10
    * MOST CONSECUTIVE 100-OR-MORE POINT SEASONS:
    13 (1979-80 to 1991-92)
    Second: Six players tied with 6
    * MOST THREE-OR-MORE GOAL GAMES:
    50 (37 three-goal games; nine four-goal games; four five-goal games)
    Second: Mike Bossy, 39 (30 three-goal games, nine four-goal games)
    * MOST OVERTIME ASSISTS:
    15
    Second: Doug Gilmour, 13
    * HIGHEST ASSISTS-PER-GAME AVERAGE:
    1.321 (1,962 assists in 1,485 games)
    Second: Mario Lemieux, 1.183 (881 assists in 745 games)
    Single Season Records

    * MOST POINTS, ONE SEASON:
    215 (1985-86, 80-game schedule)
    Next (fifth): Mario Lemieux, 199 (1988-89, 80-game schedule)
    * MOST POINTS, ONE SEASON, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS:
    255 (1984-85; 208 points in 80 regular season games and 47 points in 18 playoff games)
    Next (sixth): Mario Lemieux, 218 (1988-89; 199 points in 76 regular season games and 19 points in 11 playoff games)
    * MOST GOALS, ONE SEASON:
    92 (1981-82, 80-game schedule)
    Second: Gretzky, 87 (1983-84, 80-game schedule)
    * MOST GOALS, ONE SEASON, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS:
    100 (1983-84, 87 goals in 74 regular season games and 13 goals in 19 playoff games)
    Second: Gretzky, Lemieux and Brett Hull tied at 97
    * MOST GOALS, 50 GAMES FROM START OF SEASON:
    61 (1981-82 and 1983-84)
    Third: 54 - Mario Lemieux (1988-89)
    * MOST ASSISTS, ONE SEASON:
    163 (1985-86, 80-game schedule)
    Next (eighth): 114 - Mario Lemieux and Wayne Gretzky (1988-89, 80-game schedule)
    * MOST ASSISTS, ONE SEASON, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS:
    174 (1985-86, 163 assists in 80 regular season games and 11 assists in 10 playoff games)
    Next (tied for 11th): 121 - Mario Lemieux (1988-89, 114 assists in 76 regular season games and seven assists in 11 playoff games)
    * MOST POINTS BY A CENTER, ONE SEASON:
    215 (1985-86, 80-game schedule)
    Next (fifth): 199 - Mario Lemieux, 1988-89, 80-game schedule
    * MOST GOALS BY A CENTER, ONE SEASON:
    92 (1981-82, 80-game schedule)
    Next (third): 85 - Mario Lemieux (1988-89, 80-game schedule).
    * MOST ASSISTS BY A CENTER:
    163 (1985-86, 80-game schedule)
    Next: Gretzky holds first through fifth positions
    * MOST THREE-OR-MORE GOAL GAMES:
    10 (1981-82, six three-goal games; three four-goal games; one five-goal game)
    (Tied in 1983-84, six three-goal games, four four-goal games)
    Next (third): 9 - Mike Bossy and Mario Lemieux
    * LONGEST CONSECUTIVE ASSIST-SCORING STREAK:
    23 games - 48 assists (1990-91)
    Second: Adam Oates - 18 games - 28 assists (1992-93)
    * LONGEST CONSECUTIVE POINT-SCORING STREAK:
    51 games - 61 goals, 92 assists for 153 points (Oct. 5, 1983 to Jan. 28, 1984)
    Second: Mario Lemieux - 46 games - 39 goals, 64 assists for 103 points (1989-90)
    * LONGEST CONSECUTIVE POINT-SCORING STREAK FROM START OF SEASON:
    51 games - 61 goals, 92 assists for 153 points
    * HIGHEST GOALS-PER-GAME AVERAGE, ONE SEASON:
    1.18 (1983-84, 87 goals in 74 games)
    Second (tied): 1.15 - Mario Lemieux (1992-93, 69 goals in 60 games) and Wayne Gretzky (1981-82, 92 goals in 80 games)
    * HIGHEST ASSISTS-PER-GAME AVERAGE, ONE SEASON:
    2.04 (1985-86, 163 assists in 80 games)
    Next (eighth): 1.52 - Mario Lemieux (1992-93, 91 assists in 60 games)
    * HIGHEST POINTS-PER-GAME AVERAGE, ONE SEASON (AMONG PLAYERS WITH 50-OR-MORE POINTS):
    2.77 (1983-84, 205 points in 74 games)
    Next (third): 2.67 - Mario Lemieux (1992-93, 160 points in 60 games)
    Single Game Records

    * MOST GOALS, ONE PERIOD:
    4 (Tied with 10 other players)
    Feb. 18, 1981, third period (Edmonton 9, St. Louis 2)
    * MOST ASSISTS, ONE GAME:
    7 (tied with Billy Taylor)
    Feb. 15, 1980 (Edmonton 8, Washington 2)
    Dec. 11, 1985 (Edmonton 12, Chicago 9)
    Feb. 14, 1986 (Edmonton 8, Quebec 2)
    Second: 6 - 23 players
    * MOST ASSISTS, ONE ROAD GAME:
    7 (tied with Billy Taylor)
    Dec. 11, 1985 (Edmonton 12, Chicago 9)
    Second: 6 - four players
    * MOST ASSISTS, ONE GAME, BY A PLAYER IN HIS FIRST NHL SEASON:
    7 - Feb. 15, 1980 (Edmonton 8, Washington 2)
    Second: 6 - Gary Suter, April 4, 1986 (Calgary 9, Edmonton 3)

    Career Records - Playoffs

    * MOST PLAYOFF GOALS:
    122
    Second: 109 - Mark Messier
    * MOST PLAYOFF ASSISTS:
    260
    Second: 186 - Mark Messier
    * MOST PLAYOFF POINTS:
    382 (122 goals and 260 assists)
    Second: 295 - Mark Messier (109 goals and 186 assists).
    * MOST GAME-WINNING GOALS IN PLAYOFFS:
    24
    Second: 19 - Claude Lemieux
    * MOST THREE-OR-MORE GOAL GAMES IN PLAYOFFS:
    10 (eight three-goal games, two four-goal games)
    Second (tied): 7 - Maurice Richard (four three-goal games, two four-goal games, one five-goal game) and Jari Kurri (six three-goal games, one four-goal game)

    SINGLE SEASON RECORDS - PLAYOFFS
    * MOST POINTS, ONE PLAYOFF YEAR:
    47 (1985, 17 goals and 30 assists in 18 games)
    Next: 44 - Mario Lemieux (1991, 16 goals, 28 assists in 23 games)
    * MOST ASSISTS, ONE PLAYOFF YEAR:
    31 (1988, 19 games)
    Next (fourth): 28 - Mario Lemieux (1991, 23 games)
    * MOST POINTS IN FINAL SERIES:
    13 - three goals and 10 assists (1988, four games plus suspended game vs. Boston)
    Second: 12 - four players
    * MOST ASSISTS IN FINAL SERIES:
    10 (1988, four games, plus suspended game vs. Boston)
    Second: 9 - three players tied
    * MOST ASSISTS IN ONE SERIES (OTHER THAN FINAL):
    14 - 1985 Conference Finals (six games vs. Chicago)
    (tied with Rick Middleton)
    Second: 13 - Doug Gilmour, 1994 Conference Semifinals (seven games vs. San Jose) and Wayne Gretzky, 1987 Division Semifinal (five games vs. Los Angeles)
    * MOST SHORTHANDED GOALS, ONE PLAYOFF YEAR:
    3 (1983, two vs. Winnipeg in Division Semi-Finals; one vs. Calgary in Division Finals)
    (tied with five other players)

    Single Game Records - Playoffs

    * MOST ASSISTS, ONE PLAYOFF GAME:
    6 - April 9, 1987 at Edmonton (Edmonton 13, Los Angeles 3)
    (tied with Mikko Leinonen)
    Next: 5 - 11 players tied
    * MOST POINTS, ONE PLAYOFF PERIOD:
    4 (1 goal, 3 assists) - April 12, 1987 at Los Angeles, third period (Edmonton 6, Los Angeles 3)
    (tied with nine other players)
    * MOST ASSISTS, ONE PLAYOFF PERIOD:
    3 - Three assists by one player in one period of a playoff game has been recorded on 70 occasions. Gretzky has had three assists in one period five times. (Ray Bourque, three times; Toe Blake, Jean Beliveau, Doug Harvey and Bobby Orr, twice.)
    * MOST SHORT-HANDED GOALS, ONE PLAYOFF GAME:
    2 - April 6, 1983 at Edmonton (Edmonton 6, Winnipeg 3)
    (tied with eight other players)

    NHL All Star Game Records

    * MOST ALL-STAR GAME GOALS:
    13 (in 18 games played)
    Second: 11 - Mario Lemieux (in eight games played)
    * MOST ALL-STAR GAME GOALS, ONE GAME: 4 (1983 Campbell Conference)/b>
    (tied with three players)
    * MOST ALL-STAR GAME GOALS, ONE PERIOD: 4 (1983 Campbell Conference, third period)br>
    * MOST ALL-STAR GAME POINTS, ONE PERIOD:
    4 (1983 Campbell Conference, third period)br> (tied with Mike Gartner and Adam Oates)
    * MOST ALL-STAR GAME POINTS, CAREER:
    25 (13 goals, 12 assists in 18 games)
    Second: 22 - Mario Lemieux (11 goals, nine assists in 8 games)
    * MOST ALL-STAR GAME ASSISTS, CAREER:
    12 (tied with four players)
    Second: 10 - Paul Coffey

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    Default Re: Best ever

    I'm glad you base your opinion only on stats and instead of actually providing an actual answer to my questions. Messier won more as a leader. Messier was more physically dominant. Messier could score better than most. Messier could pass better than most. Messier is labeled the best leader in all of sport. There is the Mark Messier leadership award, which the NHL recognizes as an actual award now. Does Gretzky have anything like that? Again, did Gretzky win the cup again after leaving the Oilers? Players are in the NHL to win the cup you know. They are not there just to get points. All it would take is one elbow from Messier to throw Gretzky off of his game. Messier was a complete player. Gretzky was not. Again, wouldn't you want the best player of all time to be a complete player and not one that relied on goons to do all of his dirty work?

    It only makes sense to me.

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