Judge not??

[The Voice]

Really?? How do you know?? What research into those wars have you done??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

Here is some reading material for you.

[Soundbear]

Oh, boy.

Indicates that politics were a much larger influence that any religious idealism.

Thanks.

[The Voice]

Oh, boy.

Indicates that politics were a much larger influence that any religious idealism.

Thanks.

Of course a war started by church leaders fought along religious lines by holy warriors. You are absolutely right what was I thinking.

BTW: is denial a defence mechanism?

Why would I expect a christian to accept the truth it would only show the failure of your position.

[Soundbear]

Of course a war started by church leaders fought along religious lines by holy warriors. You are absolutely right what was I thinking.

BTW: is denial a defence mechanism?

Why would I expect a christian to accept the truth it would only show the failure of your position.

I note from your reference that most of the crusades were BLESSED by the church, not started.

[The Voice]

I note from your reference that most of the crusades were BLESSED by the church, not started.

It is a generalization try reading some of the referance material in the footnotes then come back and talk to me about what you do and do not know about the crusades

But here and now we are specifically talking about the Crusades to the Holy land.

They were indeed started by the pope and the byzantium emperor.

This is historical fact.

[Soundbear]

Why??

[The Voice]

Why??

Why what?

[Soundbear]

"The Crusades were a series of religious expeditionary wars blessed by the Pope and the Catholic Church, with the stated goal of restoring Christian access to the holy places in and near Jerusalem."

Blessed by the pope. Sent by the Pope?? Doesn't say.

Stated goal. Is that the real goal?? Or was there something else going on??

Access to the Holy Places. Seems pretty clear to me that, if Christians had blocked the Islamic holy places, the wars would have been going the other way.

"The Crusades were originally launched in response to a call from the leaders of the Byzantine Empire for help to fight the expansion into Anatolia of Muslim Seljuk Turks who had cut off access to Jerusalem."

Ah, there's a political reason, at least partially

"The crusaders comprised military units of Roman Catholics from all over western Europe, and were not under unified command"

What?? I thought they were all sent by the Pope??

"Rivalries among both Christian and Muslim powers led also to alliances between religious factions against their opponents, such as the Christian alliance with the Sultanate of Rûm during the Fifth Crusade."

Excuse me?? And here I thought the Crusades were Christian against Moslem!!

One more, from a casual search:

"The Fifth Crusade of 1217–1221 and the Seventh Crusade of 1248–1254 were largely attempts to secure Western European control of the Red Sea trade region, as both Crusades were directed against Egypt, the power base of the Ayyubid, and then Mameluke, Sultanates"

Doesn't look at all like a "religious" crusade.

So, you may believe that because Christians are "exclusive" and hate other religions, they went "crusading". In fact, history doesn't tell quite so clear cut a story.

Thanks for the info.

[Soundbear]

A bit more:

"Although Europe had been exposed to Islamic culture for centuries through contacts in Iberian Peninsula and Sicily, much knowledge in areas such as science, medicine, and architecture was transferred from the Islamic to the western world during the crusade era"

....

" If, indeed, the Christian civilization of Europe has become universal culture, in the highest sense, the glory redounds, in no small measure, to the Crusades."

[The Voice]

It is a generalization try reading some of the referance material in the footnotes then come back and talk to me about what you do and do not know about the crusades

But here and now we are specifically talking about the Crusades to the Holy land.

They were indeed started by the pope and the byzantium emperor.

This is historical fact.

Plenty of evidence to support this claim.

What is your take on all the people who died?

[The Voice]

A bit more:

"Although Europe had been exposed to Islamic culture for centuries through contacts in Iberian Peninsula and Sicily, much knowledge in areas such as science, medicine, and architecture was transferred from the Islamic to the western world during the crusade era"

....

" If, indeed, the Christian civilization of Europe has become universal culture, in the highest sense, the glory redounds, in no small measure, to the Crusades."

Go to Syria and ask them what they think about the crusades. See if you get out of there with your skin.

[Soundbear]

Go to Syria and ask them what they think about the crusades. See if you get out of there with your skin.

Voice, you are making generalizations when you characterize the Crusades as simply religios wars. There were much more complex reasons for them than simple religious disagreement.

Certainly there would be a different view of them in Syria, and I certainly don't believe that the lives that were lost were a good thing.

So let's leave that one alone.

[The Voice]

"The Crusades were a series of religious expeditionary wars blessed by the Pope and the Catholic Church, with the stated goal of restoring Christian access to the holy places in and near Jerusalem.".

Ok so if the Pope didn't start the crusade who did and why?

[Soundbear]

Crusade?? Which one??

[RWGR]

There was only one crusade???

The publisher of our history textbooks is going to hear about this one!!

[Soundbear]

"Plenty of evidence to support this claim."

Or not.

[The Voice]

"Plenty of evidence to support this claim."

Or not.

Really SB

Who started the first crusade to the holy land and why?

[Soundbear]

Really SB

Who started the first crusade to the holy land and why?

According to the reference you gave:

Byzantine Emperor Alexius I.

His empire was threatened by the Seljuk Turks.

[hobo]

You might want to read some of the histroical documentation pertaining to the Crusades.

http://www.fordham.edu/Halsall/sbook1k.asp#The First Crusade

[The Voice]

According to the reference you gave:

Byzantine Emperor Alexius I.

His empire was threatened by the Seljuk Turks.

So then he sent a letter to the pope asking for help.

So then the Pope called for a Crusade(Holy War) to liberate the Holy Land.

But there was that one little problem the bible says Thou shalt not kill.

But the pope had a way around this.

He just declared that all that passage only applied to christian's.

Well the Germans where just overjoyed with this.

So before they headed out to the holy land they decided to have a little progrom after all they didn't have to go all the way to the middle east to kill non-christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecu..._First_Crusade