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Thread: Today's Atheists are Shallow

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    Default Today's Atheists are Shallow

    I love the remark made by one Oxford don about another: ‘On the surface, he’s profound, but deep down, he’s superficial.’ That sentence has more than once come to mind when reading the new atheists.

    Future intellectual historians will look back with wonder at the strange phenomenon of seemingly intelligent secularists in the 21st century believing that if they could show that the first chapters of Genesis are not literally true, that the universe is more than 6,000 years old and there might be other explanations for rainbows than as a sign of God’s covenant after the flood, the whole of humanity’s religious beliefs would come tumbling down like a house of cards and we would be left with a serene world of rational non-believers getting on famously with one another.

    Whatever happened to the intellectual depth of the serious atheists, the forcefulness of Hobbes, the passion of Spinoza, the wit of Voltaire, the world-shattering profundity of Nietzsche? Where is there the remotest sense that they have grappled with the real issues, which have nothing to do with science and the literal meaning of scripture and everything to do with the meaningfulness or otherwise of human life, the existence or non-existence of an objective moral order, the truth or falsity of the idea of human freedom, and the ability or inability of society to survive without the rituals, narratives and shared practices that create and sustain the social bond?

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/...he-barbarians/

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    Senior Member dancingqueen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Today's Atheists are Shallow

    Quote Originally Posted by RWGR View Post
    Whatever happened to the intellectual depth of the serious atheists, the forcefulness of Hobbes, the passion of Spinoza, the wit of Voltaire, the world-shattering profundity of Nietzsche? Where is there the remotest sense that they have grappled with the real issues, which have nothing to do with science and the literal meaning of scripture and everything to do with the meaningfulness or otherwise of human life, the existence or non-existence of an objective moral order, the truth or falsity of the idea of human freedom, and the ability or inability of society to survive without the rituals, narratives and shared practices that create and sustain the social bond?
    Yes, abstract concepts are wonderful things to discuss, they do force you to think if not for anyone else, but for oneself.
    The concrete questions, however, seem to make many Christians uncomfortable... Could it be because tangible answers cannot be argued endlessly?
    Just my perspective.
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    Default Re: Today's Atheists are Shallow

    Quote Originally Posted by dancingqueen View Post
    Yes, abstract concepts are wonderful things to discuss, they do force you to think if not for anyone else, but for oneself.
    The concrete questions, however, seem to make many Christians uncomfortable... Could it be because tangible answers cannot be argued endlessly?
    Just my perspective.
    What is an example of a "concrete question"?

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    Default Re: Today's Atheists are Shallow

    How old is the Earth?
    Love like you've never been hurt
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    Default Re: Today's Atheists are Shallow

    Quote Originally Posted by dancingqueen View Post
    How old is the Earth?
    Not sure. A few billion years, maybe.

    So how is that a "concrete" issue with Christianity?

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    Senior Member dancingqueen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Today's Atheists are Shallow

    It is a concrete issue with the Christians I know because they believe it is only a couple thousand years old.
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    Default Re: Today's Atheists are Shallow

    Quote Originally Posted by dancingqueen View Post
    It is a concrete issue with the Christians I know because they believe it is only a couple thousand years old.
    You are taking about a very small percentage of Christians: Young Earth Fundamentalists. I would guess 10-15% of Christians subscribe to this view.

    shall I judge all homosexuals by the actions of 15% of them?

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    Senior Member dancingqueen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Today's Atheists are Shallow

    I would need to see a source on that, it has been my experience a large percentage. I will gladly recant the specific example if you can show me this.
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    Default Re: Today's Atheists are Shallow

    It is a sub-group within Evangelical Protestantism, just that fact alone points to the probability it is no more than 15%. Catholics are not Young Earth, and they are the largest Christian denomination. Just those two facts alone should be enough proof.

    You want to paint all Christianity because of a few Christians you know. For a guy that claims to desire intellectual discussion, I'm sure you see the trouble here.

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    Senior Member dancingqueen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Today's Atheists are Shallow

    So it is just a sub group that believes dinosaurs never roamed the Earth and that humans where put on this Earth within days of the creation?
    This honestly is news to me.
    So, recanting that example, why don't we discuss the impossibility of one couple ultimately populating the world as we know it with little developmental disabilities. children having children with their mother? brothers and sisters?the chromosomal errors that would exist today would be astounding, yet the majority of us have no problems that would result from inbreeding.
    While we are on the topic of inbreeding, cause I imagine you will bring up the "purity" of humans preventing this (or so I have heard) what about the animals from the ark? the same problems would exist.
    Resurrection, under the apparent conditions, that is impossible, people cannot come back from the dead. If I remember correctly with no oxygen to the brain after like 5 minutes, you are dead, if you make it alive, you would be severely brain damaged as brain damage begins at something like 3 minutes of no oxygen to the brain.
    Moses parting the sea.....
    Mortal Jesus healing the ill....
    all these are examples of things science has proven (concrete) to be impossible.
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    Default Re: Today's Atheists are Shallow

    So it is just a sub group that believes dinosaurs never roamed the Earth and that humans where put on this Earth within days of the creation?
    This honestly is news to me.


    They have a name: Young Earth Creationists (YEC). Just that fact alone tells you they are a sub-group. Additionally, they are Protestant (a sub-group of Christianity), and they are a sub-group within Protestantism (Fundamentalists, as compared to Mainline). If you want to place them in their true place, they are a sub-group within a sub-group within a sub-group.

    Hardly the mainstream view of Christianity.


    So, recanting that example, why don't we discuss the impossibility of one couple ultimately populating the world as we know it with little developmental disabilities. children having children with their mother? brothers and sisters?the chromosomal errors that would exist today would be astounding, yet the majority of us have no problems that would result from inbreeding.

    Again, you totally ignore the issue at hand, and go on attacking the view of a few YECers. Go on, attack away, I'd take up your side! You are flailing away against Fundies, and I have no dog in that fight.


    While we are on the topic of inbreeding, cause I imagine you will bring up the "purity" of humans preventing this (or so I have heard) what about the animals from the ark? the same problems would exist.

    So your defense against this article on the Evangelical response to homosexuality is to bring up the story of Noah??

    DQ, slow down my friend, you are all over the place right now.

    Resurrection, under the apparent conditions, that is impossible, people cannot come back from the dead. If I remember correctly with no oxygen to the brain after like 5 minutes, you are dead, if you make it alive, you would be severely brain damaged as brain damage begins at something like 3 minutes of no oxygen to the brain.

    I agree. But if you know Christian beliefs, you know we do not believe Jesus nor God are subject to the rules of the natural world. As such, tryingto disprove something based on natural laws is not going to get us anywhere fast.


    Moses parting the sea.....
    Mortal Jesus healing the ill....
    all these are examples of things science has proven (concrete) to be impossible


    Correct, our limited understanding of the natural world has told us these things are impossible.

    Which means absolutely nothing when discussing God - an entity not bound by the laws of our natural world.

    Wow, dude, you are all over the map...slow down!!

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    Senior Member dancingqueen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Today's Atheists are Shallow

    This conversation has nothing to do with sexuality, It is in response to the link you posted about the decay of discussing abstract concepts and the increase of discussing concrete ideas.
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    Default Re: Today's Atheists are Shallow

    Quote Originally Posted by dancingqueen View Post
    So it is just a sub group that believes dinosaurs never roamed the Earth and that humans where put on this Earth within days of the creation?
    This honestly is news to me.
    I'm a YEC. There is nothing in the bible to suggest that humans didn't co-exist with dinosaurs.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancingqueen View Post
    So, recanting that example, why don't we discuss the impossibility of one couple ultimately populating the world as we know it with little developmental disabilities. children having children with their mother? brothers and sisters?the chromosomal errors that would exist today would be astounding, yet the majority of us have no problems that would result from inbreeding.
    Adam and Eve were created perfect but they sinned. When sin entered the Garden of Eden, that's when biology started to go wrong...when we started to devolve. "Chromosomal errors" were not an issue in the early generations.
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    Default Re: Today's Atheists are Shallow

    Quote Originally Posted by KDawg View Post
    I'm a YEC. There is nothing in the bible to suggest that humans didn't co-exist with dinosaurs.


    Adam and Eve were created perfect but they sinned. When sin entered the Garden of Eden, that's when biology started to go wrong...when we started to devolve. "Chromosomal errors" were not an issue in the early generations.
    And this is why the concrete debates hold more ground.
    How long did it take to "devolve"?
    can humans "devolve"?
    what about after the flood?
    and not just the humans, genetic defects would have been evident in animals as well, where the animals perfect?

    As for the dinosaur thing.... there is nothing that suggests in science that humans co-existed with dinosaurs....
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    Default Re: Today's Atheists are Shallow

    Quote Originally Posted by KDawg View Post
    When sin entered the Garden of Eden, that's when biology started to go wrong...when we started to devolve. "Chromosomal errors" were not an issue in the early generations.
    Okay, you're a "bible only" guy...where in the Bible does it talk about humans devolving?

    And do you believe the earth was created in six days?

    Last, what of fossils that are dated tens of thousands of years old?

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    Senior Member Bluesky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Today's Atheists are Shallow

    Quote Originally Posted by dancingqueen View Post
    I would need to see a source on that, it has been my experience a large percentage. I will gladly recant the specific example if you can show me this.
    What does it matter? You said the question makes CHristians uncomfortable.
    It obviously does not. In fact, people on both sides of that age-old question are quite bold and vociferous about it.
    The heart of the human problem is the problem of the human heart.

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    Default Re: Today's Atheists are Shallow

    Quote Originally Posted by dancingqueen View Post
    all these are examples of things science has proven (concrete) to be impossible.
    Absolute fallacy. They have not proven them to be impossible. In fact, many scientists do believe in miracles, the resurrection, etc. We have several scientists in our church. Neuro-physicists, pathologists, doctors, etc..
    The heart of the human problem is the problem of the human heart.

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    Senior Member KDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Today's Atheists are Shallow

    Quote Originally Posted by RWGR View Post
    Okay, you're a "bible only" guy...where in the Bible does it talk about humans devolving?

    And do you believe the earth was created in six days?

    Last, what of fossils that are dated tens of thousands of years old?
    For starters, read Genesis 5. Adam lived to be 930 years old, Seth lived to be 912, Enosh 905, Canain 910, Mahalalel 895, Jared 962, Methuselah 969, Lamech 777. Today it's a minor miracle if someone lives to be over 100 years of age.

    And yeah, I believe the earth was created in six days...the bible says so explicitly.
    Last edited by KDawg; 06-23-2013 at 04:47 PM.
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    Default Re: Today's Atheists are Shallow

    The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous. The very essence of an atheist is that they 'don't believe' in God. So, what is there to get 'deep' about? How can you get deep about something, when you dismiss the existence of it?
    Currently being ignored: The Voice, The Official Cat of Soonet, Barry Morris, and Aristotle.

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    Default Re: Today's Atheists are Shallow

    And yeah, I believe the earth was created in six days...the bible says so explicitly


    You do realize that the Bible uses the number 7 to show completeness, and 6 to show incompleteness, right?

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