Vianet.ca
+ Reply to Thread
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4
Results 61 to 69 of 69

Thread: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

  1. #61
    Senior Member dancingqueen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    somewhere over the rainbow
    Posts
    20,067

    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Most of Europe.
    Love like you've never been hurt
    Sing like nobody's listening
    Dance like nobody's watching
    And Live Like it's Heaven on Earth
    - Mark Twain

  2. #62
    Senior Member KDawg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    4,227

    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Yeah, I think you're looking to Europe in their decline (North America too).

    Europe was most definitely not BUILT on handouts.
    The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never be certain they're authentic.
    ~Abraham Lincoln

  3. #63
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    2,927

    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by dancingqueen View Post
    Right, you didn't say that... err, oops....
    That's right, I didn't say it's bad for anyone to rise out of poverty. I don't think giving them money is the way for it to happen though. When we give people 'free' money I don't think we should give them more than enough to survive. If they want to thrive they need to work for it. There is no reason that anyone who works hard won't succeed. Sure, some will seemingly get more 'breaks' but that's life. If you want to sit on your butt I'm OK with that but don't expect a life of luxury.


    The job market is not exactly saturated with well paying jobs. This is exactly what I mean about you speaking from a privileged position. It is clear you are not poor, this would be due to having work that pays a livable wage. You are presuming that because you got into this position that others must be able to as well. When there are next to no jobs, let alone ones paying a livable wage you are offering an impossible solution to the problem.
    There are next to no jobs that pay a livable wage? I guess we differ on what a livable wage is.

    I think it's in our best interest to provide enough money to provide the necessities for those who can't provide it for themselves. I also think that anyone without a disability that prevents them from working should be able to work their way out of that situation. There are jobs. There are opportunities to get education to increase earning potential.

    I don't think throwing money at people who aren't working does any good though. That money isn't free and making it more comfortable for people to sit on their butts is counter productive IMO.

    The article cited examples where people who couldn't afford the basic necessities were given money. It's hardly a surprise they spent in on necessities and not relevant to whether we should provide more than the basics needs.

  4. #64
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    SSM
    Posts
    821

    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by dancingqueen View Post
    It's interesting that you feel it is a "no-brainer" that the poor will abuse something like this, but when we trust the rich to trickle down their tax breaks, well, that's just fine.
    I would like you to re-read my post.

    Done? Good!

    Now I would like you to tell me where I said the poor (meant as a general all inclusive statement) would abuse this?

    Can't find it? That's because I never once said it.

    Would you have us believe that poor people (meant as a general all inclusive statement) are all honest and don't currently abuse our welfare system by sitting around collecting a paycheck? Would you also have us believe that poor people (meant as a general all inclusive statement) would all be honest with this system and that none would abuse it?

    Here, I'll quote myself and bold exactly where I didn't generalize the poor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asparas
    Some are mentioning that some will abuse it like welfare which should be a no brainer to agree with.
    Also, maybe you should not generalize the rich either. I'm by no means even close to be considered rich or even well off. I live almost paycheck to paycheck and I sympathize with the poor. I know there are some who'd need it, and I know there are some who'd abuse it due to their deadbeat-ness. Anyone who'd think that abuse wouldn't happen would have to have eyes sealed right shut and living a kilometre underground.

  5. #65
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    2,927

    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by bilbo79 View Post
    Manitoba experimented with this idea in the 70's, with pretty great results. It found the only people who worked less were single mothers and highschool kids.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome
    The results don't seem 'pretty great'. They don't seem pretty terrible either. Unfortunately they aren't very conclusive.

    First thing to note is the cost. The gun registry comes to mind when looking at the estimated cost vs. the real cost.

    "The NDP thought it would cost slightly more than $500,000...the project ultimately cost more than $17 million..."

    Another thing to note is that this program only guaranteed an income equivalent to the welfare levels at the time.

    "If a household's income dropped below a certain amount, the program would top it up to an income equivalent to the welfare rates at the time..."

    It does appear there were positive effects on health.

    So the dollar costs were astronomical and the benefits were minimal. A professor of health sciences at the University of Manitoba accessed the records, spent a very long time studying them and came away with with nothing to show it would be beneficial to repeat the experiment.

  6. #66
    Senior Member dancingqueen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    somewhere over the rainbow
    Posts
    20,067

    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by Asparas View Post
    I would like you to re-read my post.

    Done? Good!

    Now I would like you to tell me where I said the poor (meant as a general all inclusive statement) would abuse this?

    Can't find it? That's because I never once said it.

    Would you have us believe that poor people (meant as a general all inclusive statement) are all honest and don't currently abuse our welfare system by sitting around collecting a paycheck? Would you also have us believe that poor people (meant as a general all inclusive statement) would all be honest with this system and that none would abuse it?

    Here, I'll quote myself and bold exactly where I didn't generalize the poor.



    Also, maybe you should not generalize the rich either. I'm by no means even close to be considered rich or even well off. I live almost paycheck to paycheck and I sympathize with the poor. I know there are some who'd need it, and I know there are some who'd abuse it due to their deadbeat-ness. Anyone who'd think that abuse wouldn't happen would have to have eyes sealed right shut and living a kilometre underground.
    You are moving the goalposts, I never made claim that you said ALL people would abuse it, however, your reasoning is because some will. and yes, some will, just like some rich people abuse the system to make their tax breaks. It seems, however that most of us on this board think that it's okay if some of the rich abuse the system, but it is not even worth considering if the potential for some of the poor people will abuse the system exists.
    Love like you've never been hurt
    Sing like nobody's listening
    Dance like nobody's watching
    And Live Like it's Heaven on Earth
    - Mark Twain

  7. #67
    Senior Member dancingqueen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    somewhere over the rainbow
    Posts
    20,067

    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    It's nice to see you have so much to add to this conversation.
    can you address why it's okay to trust big business to improve society with gigantic tax breaks, but it is not okay to trust the poor?
    Love like you've never been hurt
    Sing like nobody's listening
    Dance like nobody's watching
    And Live Like it's Heaven on Earth
    - Mark Twain

  8. #68
    Senior Member bilbo79's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    298

    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by stupefied View Post
    The results don't seem 'pretty great'. They don't seem pretty terrible either. Unfortunately they aren't very conclusive.

    First thing to note is the cost. The gun registry comes to mind when looking at the estimated cost vs. the real cost.

    "The NDP thought it would cost slightly more than $500,000...the project ultimately cost more than $17 million..."

    Another thing to note is that this program only guaranteed an income equivalent to the welfare levels at the time.

    "If a household's income dropped below a certain amount, the program would top it up to an income equivalent to the welfare rates at the time..."

    It does appear there were positive effects on health.

    So the dollar costs were astronomical and the benefits were minimal. A professor of health sciences at the University of Manitoba accessed the records, spent a very long time studying them and came away with with nothing to show it would be beneficial to repeat the experiment.
    I guess it depends on your idea of 'pretty great' I think more kids graduating high school. Less hospital visits, less work place injuries, less car accidents, less domestic abuse are all 'pretty great'

    Yes, it did cost more than anticipated but they also ended up helping twice the families. The reduction of hospital visits in Dauphin during the program was 8.5%. Consider in 2010 Canada spent 55 billion on hospital costs. An 8.5% reduction would roughly translate into $4.6 billion.

    And if you look a little deeper Prof Forget, had trouble getting the data and funding complete the report which is why it was never released.
    Last edited by bilbo79; 10-17-2013 at 12:16 PM.

  9. #69
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    2,927

    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Twice the families at 34 times the estimated cost. An average price of $17000.00 per family. That was a heck of a lot of money in a time when the poverty line was $2,100 a year. That is not at all great .

    The reduction in hospital visits is pretty great. An 8.5% reduction in visits doesn't necessarily, or even likely, equate to an 8.5% in costs though. And while hospital visits in Dauphin fell that amount during that time it only brought them in line with the comparison group. They stayed in line the years immediately following. Why were they higher in the few years before? Why didn't they immediately jump back up after mincome ended? Crediting mincome for less car accidents and work place injuries, come on! Good luck supporting that as the reason.

    More people graduating high school is very positive.

+ Reply to Thread

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

     

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts