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  1. #21
    Senior Member dancingqueen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by Official Cat of Soonet View Post
    Dq, you know how I feel about studies and experiments in the sociology field. Instead I will look at issues dealing with poverty such as drugs, single parenthood, spending habits, working habits , sex habits and say giving money doesn't deal with these issues. How would money help people already in the cycle.
    No I don't know how you feel about studies or experiments in the sociology field, as far as I know you are a new member, however I would be interested in you pointing out the flaws of their methodology.
    Money helps dealing with poverty, I am sure I do not have to explain how on that one.
    Drugs are a by-product of poverty in most cases, when people become poor and can't afford to live, they get depressed and feel hopeless, thus self medicate, this is where alcohol and drug abuse comes up, and why you will see significant increase of such abuse in lower income households.
    I do not see how single parenthood is a "problem" that needs to be fixed, as such I will not address this point.
    Spending habits: I will assume you are referring to the "tattoo getting, booze buying neglectful mother who parties all night and leaves their children with their TV on as a baby-sitter" I would suggest those are a bogey-man created by the people that want to trodd on the poor, It's awfully difficult to go out and party all night long when you can't even afford the apartment you are living in.
    Working habits: It's awfully hard to judge someone's working habits when there aren't any jobs around.
    Sex habits: again, not an issue I wouldn't be concerned about and neither should you, so I shall not address that either.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member dancingqueen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    Again, define "poverty".
    Let's say we give everyone who lives below the poverty line $20,000/year. Then what?
    Hans, it's all in the article I posted, did you even read it?
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  3. #23

    Lightbulb Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by dancingqueen View Post
    Can you substantiate these opinions? because the article has substantiated the idea that providing the poor with a livable income in a dignified manner does enable them to maintain their pride and does do something for them to get them into more successful and happier living.

    Why are you avoiding talking about the experiments that this article outlines that show this has been beneficial?
    Experiments are flawed in this field. Tell me how they can measure people's happiness in one setting then put them in a new setting and then measure that. There are too many variables. Maybe partaking in studies is what made people happy. It's too subjective and the people doing these studies can have an opinion ahead of time and make conclusions to suit it.
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  4. #24

    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by dancingqueen View Post
    No I don't know how you feel about studies or experiments in the sociology field, as far as I know you are a new member, however I would be interested in you pointing out the flaws of their methodology.
    Money helps dealing with poverty, I am sure I do not have to explain how on that one.
    Drugs are a by-product of poverty in most cases, when people become poor and can't afford to live, they get depressed and feel hopeless, thus self medicate, this is where alcohol and drug abuse comes up, and why you will see significant increase of such abuse in lower income households.
    I do not see how single parenthood is a "problem" that needs to be fixed, as such I will not address this point.
    Spending habits: I will assume you are referring to the "tattoo getting, booze buying neglectful mother who parties all night and leaves their children with their TV on as a baby-sitter" I would suggest those are a bogey-man created by the people that want to trodd on the poor, It's awfully difficult to go out and party all night long when you can't even afford the apartment you are living in.
    Working habits: It's awfully hard to judge someone's working habits when there aren't any jobs around.
    Sex habits: again, not an issue I wouldn't be concerned about and neither should you, so I shall not address that either.
    You don't think single parenthood is an issue? It's not for some, it is for some. 2 incomes would go a long way in keeping somebody out of poverty and the risks that go along with poverty. As for booze addicted tattooing people, we all know at least one. Don't tell me it's boogeyman. Also you say a lot of these things are a product of poverty which I agree with. They are in a cycle and giving them money won't get them out of that cycle. It would take generations to do that.
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    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by dancingqueen View Post
    Hans, it's all in the article I posted, did you even read it?
    Yes, but I notice you seem to be dancing around the 2 questions I posed, so I am wondering if you even read it?

    1. Define "poverty"
    2. If you give everyone below the poverty line $20,000, then what?
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    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    "Drugs are a by-product of poverty in most cases, when people become poor and can't afford to live, they get depressed and feel hopeless, thus self medicate, this is where alcohol and drug abuse comes up, and why you will see significant increase of such abuse in lower income households."

    I understand the point being made here, but I think I tend to disagree that 'drugs are a by-product of poverty in most cases' - I think that in many cases poverty is a by-product of drug use.

    There are many homeless people wandering the streets that started out with families, jobs, and homes, who fell into addiction and lost everything but the addiction. Giving someone like that access to even more money would simply be putting gasoline on the bonfire, until they get their addiction sorted out.

    I think it might be very interesting if the government offered a pilot project, where people could get an enhanced amount of social assistance if they agreed to regular drug testing, and one of the conditions of this enhanced level of support is that they stay free of criminal activity. If they fail drug testing, or commit an offence, they go back down to the standard amount of social assistance.

    This would make a lot of sense, when you consider how much it costs society to care for drug addiction, or crimes that stem from addiction. And it gives those who are staying clean an incentive to stay on the right track, and have enough income to improve their situation.

    Just my thoughts on it, anyway.
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  7. #27
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    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    Yes, but I notice you seem to be dancing around the 2 questions I posed, so I am wondering if you even read it?

    1. Define "poverty"
    2. If you give everyone below the poverty line $20,000, then what?
    Well Hans, by reading the article I ascertained that poverty would be those making less than 20,000 a year.
    Then what? Then they can live happy lives, not have to make decisions between do we eat this month or do we pay rent this month? Then when people are stable they can do thing to better themselves, like go back to school, work on that side project they always wanted to do, spend some time with their kids etc... (This I also was able to find by reading the article)
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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by The Left Sock View Post
    "Drugs are a by-product of poverty in most cases, when people become poor and can't afford to live, they get depressed and feel hopeless, thus self medicate, this is where alcohol and drug abuse comes up, and why you will see significant increase of such abuse in lower income households."

    I understand the point being made here, but I think I tend to disagree that 'drugs are a by-product of poverty in most cases' - I think that in many cases poverty is a by-product of drug use.

    There are many homeless people wandering the streets that started out with families, jobs, and homes, who fell into addiction and lost everything but the addiction. Giving someone like that access to even more money would simply be putting gasoline on the bonfire, until they get their addiction sorted out.

    I think it might be very interesting if the government offered a pilot project, where people could get an enhanced amount of social assistance if they agreed to regular drug testing, and one of the conditions of this enhanced level of support is that they stay free of criminal activity. If they fail drug testing, or commit an offence, they go back down to the standard amount of social assistance.

    This would make a lot of sense, when you consider how much it costs society to care for drug addiction, or crimes that stem from addiction. And it gives those who are staying clean an incentive to stay on the right track, and have enough income to improve their situation.

    Just my thoughts on it, anyway.
    Have you taken into consideration the studies done in other places where there was a negative correlation between drug use and social assistance in places that tried doing mandatory drug testing on people on social assistance?
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  9. #29
    Senior Member dancingqueen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by Official Cat of Soonet View Post
    Experiments are flawed in this field. Tell me how they can measure people's happiness in one setting then put them in a new setting and then measure that. There are too many variables. Maybe partaking in studies is what made people happy. It's too subjective and the people doing these studies can have an opinion ahead of time and make conclusions to suit it.
    I would suggest that it is simple to determine one is happier not living in squallar and having to decide which bill gets paid this month than they are living in those conditions.
    Love like you've never been hurt
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    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by dancingqueen View Post
    Have you taken into consideration the studies done in other places where there was a negative correlation between drug use and social assistance in places that tried doing mandatory drug testing on people on social assistance?
    I have, that's why I suggested an enhanced program, where people could opt in for the extra assistance, as long as they were willing to comply. In this way, it wouldn't be mandatory, but voluntary.
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  11. #31

    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by dancingqueen View Post
    I would suggest that it is simple to determine one is happier not living in squallar and having to decide which bill gets paid this month than they are living in those conditions.
    Here's how I envision the study. Person gets asked how happy they are. They choose from very happy to not very happy. They are given $20000. They are asked again how happy are you. If they don't say they're happy, they know they aren't getting that $20000 because the study would conclude guaranteed income doesn't make one happier. They don't have people secretly following subjects measuring how happy they are. They just ask. Depending on what kind of day it's been you will get answers that reflect that particular day. Like I said, I don't even look at studies in that field.
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  12. #32
    Senior Member dancingqueen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by Official Cat of Soonet View Post
    Here's how I envision the study. Person gets asked how happy they are. They choose from very happy to not very happy. They are given $20000. They are asked again how happy are you. If they don't say they're happy, they know they aren't getting that $20000 because the study would conclude guaranteed income doesn't make one happier. They don't have people secretly following subjects measuring how happy they are. They just ask. Depending on what kind of day it's been you will get answers that reflect that particular day. Like I said, I don't even look at studies in that field.
    So do you feel decisions like this are better made by opinions than these studies?
    is that any less bias?
    and just to add, that is not at all how these studies are done, I would suggest reading up on how the methodologies of these research pieces work there are many control factors put in place to increase unbiased responses, though admittedly not flawless, but what kinds of control factors are put into one's opinion?
    Don't get me wrong, opinions are important, and they do have their place, I just feel when it comes to major decisions that affect so many people that opinions should take a backseat to the studies that are done.
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    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by dancingqueen View Post
    Well Hans, by reading the article I ascertained that poverty would be those making less than 20,000 a year.
    Then what? Then they can live happy lives, not have to make decisions between do we eat this month or do we pay rent this month? Then when people are stable they can do thing to better themselves, like go back to school, work on that side project they always wanted to do, spend some time with their kids etc... (This I also was able to find by reading the article)
    Well, I am sure that those making more than 20,000 a year would welcome being able to work on a side project, spend some time with their kids etc...
    You see the issue? You can't expect to be handed 20,000/year without giving something in return.
    Because if you expect that, next you will expect 40,000/year. Where do you draw the line on what your entitlement should be?
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  14. #34
    Senior Member dancingqueen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    Well, I am sure that those making more than 20,000 a year would welcome being able to work on a side project, spend some time with their kids etc...
    You see the issue? You can't expect to be handed 20,000/year without giving something in return.
    Because if you expect that, next you will expect 40,000/year. Where do you draw the line on what your entitlement should be?
    The line I would draw is enough money to actually survive off of, and with some dignity.
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    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    You can live like a king on 20,000/year, pending on where you live.
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  16. #36
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    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    $1666.67 a month is living like a king?
    I once made 800 some a pay check and it was nice being able to survive comfortably. I was even able to buy name brand Kraft Dinner...
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    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Well, in Madagascar the average person lives on $1/day.
    Imagine how you could live if you had $20,000 to spend.

    There are many other countries where the average daily wage is similar.
    Move there, and you would never need to work or worry about bills to pay.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=mada...bih=1315&dpr=1

    Here are some pictures of Madagascar. Very nice scenery, is it not?
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    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by dancingqueen View Post
    $1666.67 a month is living like a king?
    I once made 800 some a pay check and it was nice being able to survive comfortably. I was even able to buy name brand Kraft Dinner...
    Chances are those who would even qualify for the program are already living in cheaper housing, maybe income based housing. So yea, they probably could live like kings depending on their individual situation and spending habits.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    Well, in Madagascar the average person lives on $1/day.
    Imagine how you could live if you had $20,000 to spend.

    There are many other countries where the average daily wage is similar.
    Move there, and you would never need to work or worry about bills to pay.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=mada...bih=1315&dpr=1

    Here are some pictures of Madagascar. Very nice scenery, is it not?
    Non sequitur
    We don't live in Madagascar, nor do we live in their economy.
    Love like you've never been hurt
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  20. #40
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    Default Re: Interesting article courtesy of my Facebook feed

    Quote Originally Posted by Asparas View Post
    Chances are those who would even qualify for the program are already living in cheaper housing, maybe income based housing. So yea, they probably could live like kings depending on their individual situation and spending habits.
    "Live like kings" is a very subjective term. To me the term means you can afford extravagant luxuries beyond the means of the average person. It seems to me what you and others are saying, the term means being able to live comfortably, without having to worry about where your next meal is coming from.
    Love like you've never been hurt
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