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Thread: The reality of religion

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    Default The reality of religion

    "I thought I was close to God because I knew all the answers, but I had fooled myself into thinking that was the same as relationship with Jesus." Barnabas Piper.
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

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    Default Re: The reality of religion

    False dichotomy, insinuating one must either be very knowledgeable concerning religion and God, or close to Jesus; can't be both.

    I bet St. Augustine and St. Aquinas would scratch their heads over this.

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    Senior Member Bluesky's Avatar
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    Default Re: The reality of religion

    It CAN be a false dichotomy, but in this case it is not. It would be if it were posed as an either / or. Barnabas Piper is not advocating for a mindless or thoughtless or uncritical faith instead of knowledge. He is arguing for a knowledge-based well informed faith that holds Jesus up as the One being worshipped and not the one's own knowledge. I have met many who are proud of their theological knowledge, and yet demonstrate very little grace. St Augustine would applaud Barnabas Piper.
    The heart of the human problem is the problem of the human heart.

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    Default Re: The reality of religion

    You deciphered that from that 28-word post?

    Or are you familiar with his teachings overall?

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    Default Re: The reality of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky View Post
    It CAN be a false dichotomy, but in this case it is not. It would be if it were posed as an either / or. Barnabas Piper is not advocating for a mindless or thoughtless or uncritical faith instead of knowledge. He is arguing for a knowledge-based well informed faith that holds Jesus up as the One being worshipped and not the one's own knowledge. I have met many who are proud of their theological knowledge, and yet demonstrate very little grace. St Augustine would applaud Barnabas Piper.
    If it were not true, a child could never be saved.
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

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    Senior Member Bluesky's Avatar
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    Default Re: The reality of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by RWGR View Post
    You deciphered that from that 28-word post?

    Or are you familiar with his teachings overall?
    I am.
    The heart of the human problem is the problem of the human heart.

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    Senior Member Bluesky's Avatar
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    Default Re: The reality of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Morris View Post
    If it were not true, a child could never be saved.
    I don't understand. If WHAT were not true?
    The heart of the human problem is the problem of the human heart.

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    Default Re: The reality of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky View Post
    I don't understand. If WHAT were not true?
    That a child CAN be saved, who has very little knowledge, but trusts Jesus.
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

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    Senior Member Bluesky's Avatar
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    Default Re: The reality of religion

    What is your point? Are you saying that this is what you advocate among adult believers? That God somehow values ignorance? That we should purposely dumb down our faith?

    Perhaps RWGR is right. You are implying either faith OR knowledge, rather than both faith AND knowledge.
    The heart of the human problem is the problem of the human heart.

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    Default Re: The reality of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky View Post
    I am.
    Okay, that makes sense. Simply going by that post, and never having heard of the guy before, it was unclear for me.

    A little more context was needed for those of us unfamiliar with him.

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    Default Re: The reality of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky View Post
    What is your point? Are you saying that this is what you advocate among adult believers? That God somehow values ignorance? That we should purposely dumb down our faith?

    Perhaps RWGR is right. You are implying either faith OR knowledge, rather than both faith AND knowledge.
    I think what is happening is Barry is indeed using that very short quote to try and prop up a belief he has exhibited here many times before: (paraphrasing) 'be as a child when it comes to faith'.

    Well, yes, but to try and use that to prove God wants us to be uninformed automatons who merely shake our heads yes at everything that relates to Jesus is to use the quote for purpose in which it was not intended. In fact, it would be my opinion that God enjoys an educated Believer, because he or she has the mental wherewithal to decipher exactly what is, and isn't, of and from Jesus (with the help of the Holy Spirit, of course). I think God created the phrase "trust, but verify"

    Now, that's not to say the educated Believer is worth more in God's eyes than the simple Believer. That, of course, is not true in any sense whatsoever. But I think Barry believes the less you know, the better Christian you'll be. That seems very awkward to me.

    Some of the greatest saints were very well-educated men and women who came to God through the very mental faculties seemingly being impugned here. And so it should be. If you truly believe God is Who He says He is, and the Creator of everything, then you shouldn't be offended by Believers of a serious intellectual bent, because all inquiry will eventually lead to God, in some way, shape, or form.

    And let's not even reach out to the great Christian minds of yesteryear. Just here, in our little dysfunctional corner of the Internet, Blue, a man of obvious intelligence and intellectual skills, is in fact one of the most 'real' Christians here. His theological knowledge is greater then any of ours, because his life and career demand as much. And so he became educated about (Christianity/God/Jesus, etc), more so than any of us, and yet here he is, still a Christian, and a devout one.

    (not comparing you to Aquinas, Blue, sorry...but you get my drift)

    I don't understand the OP's distaste for deep education in this area. There is nothing to be paranoid about.

    Does Jesus ask us to believe as a child believes? Yes, He does. But to think it begins and ends there is insufficient. Believing as a child believes is the first step; then, should you have the tools to do so, deep inquiry and education can eventually follow.

    God is not afraid of us to ask "What?" or "Why?" in things. In fact, I believe He welcomes it, if we are able to keep our minds open along the way.
    Last edited by RWGR; 02-12-2016 at 03:25 PM.

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    Default Re: The reality of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky View Post
    What is your point? Are you saying that this is what you advocate among adult believers? That God somehow values ignorance? That we should purposely dumb down our faith?

    Perhaps RWGR is right. You are implying either faith OR knowledge, rather than both faith AND knowledge.
    Am I implying "faith OR knowledge" ???

    Read the quote again. Does a man who says "knew all the answers" sound ignorant to you??

    Is a child WITHOUT all the answers able to trust God?? Of course.

    Jesus din't grab a scholar, sit him on His lap and say "of such is the kingdom of God". He said that of a child.

    Does God value ignorance?? Let me turn that around. Does God value education??

    Or is it a humble heart He wants??
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Bluesky's Avatar
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    Default Re: The reality of religion

    You're starting to sound like Hans. Answer a question with a question.
    The heart of the human problem is the problem of the human heart.

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    Default Re: The reality of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky View Post
    You're starting to sound like Hans. Answer a question with a question.
    Oh, is that against the rules???

    Your non response is starting to sound like the winger.

    Now, would you like me to rephrase or not?
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

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    Default Re: The reality of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Morris View Post
    Am I implying "faith OR knowledge" ???

    Read the quote again. Does a man who says "knew all the answers" sound ignorant to you??

    Is a child WITHOUT all the answers able to trust God?? Of course.

    Jesus din't grab a scholar, sit him on His lap and say "of such is the kingdom of God". He said that of a child.

    Does God value ignorance?? Let me turn that around. Does God value education??

    Or is it a humble heart He wants??
    So an educated person cannot have a humble heart.

    Where on earth is this theology coming from??

  16. #16
    Senior Member Bluesky's Avatar
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    Default Re: The reality of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Morris View Post
    Oh, is that against the rules???

    Your non response is starting to sound like the winger.

    Now, would you like me to rephrase or not?
    Why oh why do you have to be so antagonistic? Get the chip off your shoulder. Who said anything about rules?
    I said you sound like Hans, in that you answer a question by posing questions.
    Will you give me a clear answer so that we can lay this matter to rest?
    The heart of the human problem is the problem of the human heart.

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    Default Re: The reality of religion

    I don't assume that I know the reasons you believe and say what you do. I expect the same in return.

    I will rephrase.

    God does not value ignorance. God does not value education.

    He values a humble heart.
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

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    Default Re: The reality of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by RWGR View Post
    So an educated person cannot have a humble heart.

    Where on earth is this theology coming from??
    That's not theology, that's just a local observation in one case.
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Bluesky's Avatar
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    Default Re: The reality of religion

    Oh my goodness. Seriously? God does not value education??

    Why would you say that?

    Or do you man to say there are some kinds of education God does not value and others that he does?

    Do you think when Jesus says, "Learn from me" that is an education?

    Why do you regard humility as the opposite of education and not pride?
    The heart of the human problem is the problem of the human heart.

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    Default Re: The reality of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky View Post
    Oh my goodness. Seriously? God does not value education??

    Why would you say that?

    Or do you man to say there are some kinds of education God does not value and others that he does?

    Do you think when Jesus says, "Learn from me" that is an education?

    Why do you regard humility as the opposite of education and not pride?

    I apologize for not explaining as clearly as I might.

    Will knowledge save a man?? No. It MIGHT lead him to the cross, but it will never be valued enough by God to save his soul.

    BTW, Seems to me that, because we conservative Christians don't quite know what to make of the work of the Holy Spirit, we want our pastor/teachers to have degrees to prove their worth. No degree, no job.

    I can't recall that verse, "learn from me". Jesus said "Follow me", And He certainly wanted us to trust in Him. And He taught His disciples. But I have to think it wasn't just knowledge He was trying to impart.

    Pride is indeed the opposite of humility. But I do believe that the educated man is more likely to be prideful. Not always true, of course. And the worst offenders are those who have all knowledge of the doctrine of their denomination, placing it above any other truth.
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

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