Vianet.ca
+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 84

Thread: Celebrating Luther

  1. #41
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The recesses of your mind
    Posts
    27,494

    Default Re: Celebrating Luther

    I'm not ignoring context. And how does one know when a certain biblical text is aimed at believers and when it is aimed at non-believers? Let me guess ...personal interpretation.

    Yeah, we've seen how well that's worked for a percentage of Christianity the last five hundred years

    And, I provided multiple passages. You've not addressed one, not a single one. You avoid doing so by saying I've got the context all wrong. That, of course, is a coward's way out.

    And in that, I'm not too surprised.

    So, according to BM, every passage in the Bible must be understood within two contexts: it's either addressing a believer, or a non-believer. So I ask: where in the Bible does it say that?

    God cannot talk to all humanity as one? He must talk to us as believers and non-believers in every situation?

  2. #42
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sault
    Posts
    37,745

    Default Re: Celebrating Luther

    Quote Originally Posted by RWGR View Post
    I'm not ignoring context. And how does one know when a certain biblical text is aimed at believers and when it is aimed at non-believers? Let me guess ...personal interpretation.

    Yeah, we've seen how well that's worked for a percentage of Christianity the last five hundred years

    And, I provided multiple passages. You've not addressed one, not a single one. You avoid doing so by saying I've got the context all wrong. That, of course, is a coward's way out.

    And in that, I'm not too surprised.

    So, according to BM, every passage in the Bible must be understood within two contexts: it's either addressing a believer, or a non-believer. So I ask: where in the Bible does it say that?

    God cannot talk to all humanity as one? He must talk to us as believers and non-believers in every situation?
    I'll have a look at the passages. It's usually quite clear who the author is talking to. And you may remember that many of the books were epistles, that is, letters addressed either to believers or churches.

    But we'll see.
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

  3. #43
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sault
    Posts
    37,745

    Default Re: Celebrating Luther

    One more just now.

    You said: "And Barney, your Hebrews quote certainly shows one can lose salvation: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of God afresh and put him to an open shame."

    This is very, very obviously a rhetorical statement, since there is no way Christ will be crucified again, it is therefore impossible for them to fall away.
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

  4. #44
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sault
    Posts
    37,745

    Default Re: Celebrating Luther

    ".. instead of insinuating what you think it might believe?

    Granted, you might have a lot less material to bash, but that isn't a bad thing, if you really care to know what it thinks."

    Oh.

    Really.
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Barney Rubble's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Bonnyville, Alberta
    Posts
    6,439

    Default Re: Celebrating Luther

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Morris View Post
    One more just now.

    You said: "And Barney, your Hebrews quote certainly shows one can lose salvation: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of God afresh and put him to an open shame."

    This is very, very obviously a rhetorical statement, since there is no way Christ will be crucified again, it is therefore impossible for them to fall away.
    If it is impossible for "them" to fall away then why even write the passage?
    How Bout Them Cowgirls?


  6. #46
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sault
    Posts
    37,745

    Default Re: Celebrating Luther

    Quote Originally Posted by Barney Rubble View Post
    If it is impossible for "them" to fall away then why even write the passage?
    The question in my mind is, is the translation used accurately portraying the words of the writer?? Or is there another way to look at it, as I pointed out.

    If, as you say, it DOES teach that one could fall away, then a contradiction is set up. The "born again" can be "unborn".

    I don't believe that Scripture contradicts itself, so I reject your interpretation.

    You'll notice that RW doesn't want to discuss "born again". Do you??
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Bluesky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    7,285

    Default Re: Celebrating Luther

    Here is why that Hebrews verse is hypothetical.

    For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
    Barney and Barry,

    Breaking it down to subject, verb and object,

    The person who has fallen away cannot be restored to repentance again. In other words, once you have fallen away, you are toast. There is no turning back. Which means you can only backslide once. That is why this verse becomes a real problem if you use it to prove that a person can indeed fall away.

    So why, hypothetically speaking, does this falling away make it impossible to be restored?

    For that, you have to understand the context of the book of Hebrews and it's purpose. The entire book of Hebrews is written to show the converted Jewish believer in Christ that Jesus Christ is indeed their only remedy for salvation. He is our High Priest, He is the ultimate sacrifice. The sacrificial blood of animals will no longer do. And if people "fall away" from THIS belief, they have trampled the blood of Christ underfoot, and for them, their remains no other remedy.

    Indeed, there were many Jewish adherents to Christianity who became impatient, thinking that Christ would have returned already, and they were abandoning the Christian faith and turning back to Judaism. For them, if Christ did not meet their need for salvation, there is no other remedy - there is no repentance.

    So the hypothetical has to do with people who adhered to a religion, were disappointed, and turned back to the Jewish sacrificial system. That's why the Hebrew author was adamant about saying."The blood of bulls and goats can never take away sin"

    Barney, it has been neat watching you grow in your faith ever since you joined Soonet! Which was quite a while ago.
    The heart of the human problem is the problem of the human heart.

  8. #48
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sault
    Posts
    37,745

    Default Re: Celebrating Luther

    I have seen that analysis before, maybe from you!!

    Thank you.
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

  9. #49
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The recesses of your mind
    Posts
    27,494

    Default Re: Celebrating Luther

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Morris View Post
    I'll have a look at the passages. It's usually quite clear who the author is talking to. And you may remember that many of the books were epistles, that is, letters addressed either to believers or churches.
    I agree, they were specific letters and addresses.

    But then again, in believing the Bible is indeed God talking to us, then we also have to believe they are not specific, in that they are meant for all men in all times.

  10. #50
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sault
    Posts
    37,745

    Default Re: Celebrating Luther

    Quote Originally Posted by RWGR View Post
    I agree, they were specific letters and addresses.

    But then again, in believing the Bible is indeed God talking to us, then we also have to believe they are not specific, in that they are meant for all men in all times.
    1 Cor. 1 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with eloquent words of wisdom, lest the cross of the Christ be emptied of its power. 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

    Indeed it is meant for all men. But only the saved know "it is the power of God".

    How could they know unless they have eternal salvation?? Would those once saved and knowing go back to seeing the bible as foolishness?? I don't think so, not really. God knows the heart, and as the bible says, those in His hand, He will never let go..
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

  11. #51
    Senior Member Barney Rubble's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Bonnyville, Alberta
    Posts
    6,439

    Default Re: Celebrating Luther

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky View Post
    Here is why that Hebrews verse is hypothetical.



    Barney and Barry,

    Breaking it down to subject, verb and object,

    The person who has fallen away cannot be restored to repentance again. In other words, once you have fallen away, you are toast. There is no turning back. Which means you can only backslide once. That is why this verse becomes a real problem if you use it to prove that a person can indeed fall away.

    So why, hypothetically speaking, does this falling away make it impossible to be restored?

    For that, you have to understand the context of the book of Hebrews and it's purpose. The entire book of Hebrews is written to show the converted Jewish believer in Christ that Jesus Christ is indeed their only remedy for salvation. He is our High Priest, He is the ultimate sacrifice. The sacrificial blood of animals will no longer do. And if people "fall away" from THIS belief, they have trampled the blood of Christ underfoot, and for them, their remains no other remedy.

    Indeed, there were many Jewish adherents to Christianity who became impatient, thinking that Christ would have returned already, and they were abandoning the Christian faith and turning back to Judaism. For them, if Christ did not meet their need for salvation, there is no other remedy - there is no repentance.

    So the hypothetical has to do with people who adhered to a religion, were disappointed, and turned back to the Jewish sacrificial system. That's why the Hebrew author was adamant about saying."The blood of bulls and goats can never take away sin"

    Barney, it has been neat watching you grow in your faith ever since you joined Soonet! Which was quite a while ago.
    I agree with your passage here
    there are some churches out there that believe in "saved & lost"....constantly putting CHRIST back on the cross , not having enough faith believing that you are saved the 1st time
    I do not believe in the saved & lost doctrine but do believe, via scripture, that many can be "enlightened" only to stumble & fall away when times get tough
    For this reason, I think the rapture doctrine is dangerous.
    Many enlightened ppl believing that they will not see tribulation might fall away when they find that they are in that great tribulation
    JESUS did not promise a good life. He warns that you may have to endure through tribulations & troubles.
    He does, however, tell us that we will have a good afterlife if we endure to the end.

    Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
    Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
    to name a few
    How Bout Them Cowgirls?


  12. #52
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The recesses of your mind
    Posts
    27,494

    Default Re: Celebrating Luther

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Morris View Post

    How could they know unless they have eternal salvation?? Would those once saved and knowing go back to seeing the bible as foolishness?? I don't think so, not really. God knows the heart, and as the bible says, those in His hand, He will never let go..
    You're right, God will never let go.

    But man lets go at times.

  13. #53
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sault
    Posts
    37,745

    Default Re: Celebrating Luther

    Quote Originally Posted by RWGR View Post
    ...But man lets go at times.
    And becomes unborn again??

    Becomes unfilled with the Holy Spirit??

    Like the Prodigal Son, he can walk away, but still remains a son. I think "saved as by fire" applies here, and remember what the father said to the elder son, who complained about the prodigal being welcomed back, "Son, all that I have is yours!" The Prodigal lost much, but was always a son, always a child of the father. Always saved.
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

  14. #54
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The recesses of your mind
    Posts
    27,494

    Default Re: Celebrating Luther

    My god, what a dangerous theology. How many souls will not be saved, because they believe they can't lose salvation?

    People should fear people like you.

  15. #55
    Senior Member Bluesky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    7,285

    Default Re: Celebrating Luther

    For this reason, I think the rapture doctrine is dangerous.
    The only reason you should reject a doctrine is because it is not in Scripture. Not because how your interpretation makes you feel.

    Is the rapture taught in Scripture? I have shown you a couple of times that it is. You have not grappled with the text.

    You have to either say that Paul wrote that we shall meet the Lord in the air as a metaphor and give us the right interpretation, or you have to take it at face value.
    The heart of the human problem is the problem of the human heart.

  16. #56
    Senior Member Barney Rubble's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Bonnyville, Alberta
    Posts
    6,439

    Default Re: Celebrating Luther

    i will gather scripture & get back to you
    i do not believe it because i want to disbelieve but what what scripture backs up
    this is the same of all scripture with myself
    I admit if i am wrong but only proven scripturally

    i also do not believe in the eternal seperation from GOD doctrine as taught in the Baptist church I frequent but rather the fire & brimstone as written in the scriture
    i hate when ppl say "holy ghost"...it is HOLY SPRIT...GOD is a Spirit & to be worshipped as Spirit ...not a ghost
    i also hate when ppl say it a free gift...it isn't a gift...salvation was paid for...a debt was paid....You have been "PAID" at a high price. Therefore glorify GOD in body & Spirit (again, not ghost)
    1 Cor: 6:20
    i also don't like "born again" when the greek is really "born from above"
    Last edited by Barney Rubble; 05-17-2016 at 03:45 PM.
    How Bout Them Cowgirls?


  17. #57
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sault
    Posts
    37,745

    Default Re: Celebrating Luther

    Quote Originally Posted by RWGR View Post
    My god, what a dangerous theology. How many souls will not be saved, because they believe they can't lose salvation?

    People should fear people like you.
    You say that over and over, but don't want to address the specifics.
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

  18. #58
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The recesses of your mind
    Posts
    27,494

    Default Re: Celebrating Luther

    i also do not believe in the eternal seperation from GOD doctrine as taught in the Baptist church I frequent but rather the fire & brimstone as written in the scriture

    It's not just a Baptists thing. Many churches teach that, even the RCC.

    That's what Hell is: eternal separation from God.

    The soul was made for communion with God. When the soul is robbed of that, it enters the worst state imaginable: Hell.

    God isn't going to give people in Hell a second chance at some point. Once there, you're there. You are separated from God for eternity.

    i hate when ppl say "holy ghost"...it is HOLY SPRIT...GOD is a Spirit & to be worshipped as Spirit ...not a ghost


    I wouldn't get too worked up about that. You're probably thinking "ghost" as our present minds imagine one: some ethereal entity who comes back from the grave. But the etymology of the word "ghost" is taken from the German word for spirit and the Latin word for "supernatural being".

    The word fits.

    i also hate when ppl say it a free gift...it isn't a gift...salvation was paid for...a debt was paid....You have been "PAID" at a high price

    We have paid nothing. Jesus paid the ultimate price. The cost to us: nothing. It is a gift offered free, out of pure love.

    i also don't like "born again" when the greek is really "born from above"

    I agree here. Few Christian doctrines have been more abused than this one.

  19. #59
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The recesses of your mind
    Posts
    27,494

    Default Re: Celebrating Luther

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Morris View Post
    You say that over and over, but don't want to address the specifics.
    I've addressed them many times. I am simply tired of you.

    Now if you don't mind, step aside, I'm conversing with adults.

  20. #60
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The recesses of your mind
    Posts
    27,494

    Default Re: Celebrating Luther

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky View Post
    The only reason you should reject a doctrine is because it is not in Scripture. Not because how your interpretation makes you feel.
    Can you show me where Sola Scriptura is in Scripture?

+ Reply to Thread

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

     

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts