Vianet.ca
+ Reply to Thread
Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5
Results 81 to 95 of 95

Thread: Ravi Zacharias video clip

  1. #81
    Senior Member Aristotle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    3,385

    Default Re: Ravi Zacharias video clip

    The story of the Prodigal makes perfect sense IF one recognizes that not all are legitimate children of God.

    Any human being born in history is a child of God. God is father to all, not just a select few.

    The Prodigal was always a legitimate son, and because of that, could not fall away.

    You are absolutely reading the story incorrectly. It has nothing to do with being unable to lose your salvation, and has everything to do with God's infinite and unfathomable mercy.


    There ARE illegitimate sons, and they are never saved.

    Nowhere does the Bible teach that. However, the Koran surely does.

    Please note the words of the Father to the elder son, "All that I have is yours". That shows the loss of the junior, but his salvation was never in question.


    It shows nothing of the sort.
    The one exclusive sign of thorough knowledge is the power of teaching.

  2. #82
    Senior Member Aristotle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    3,385

    Default Re: Ravi Zacharias video clip

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Morris View Post
    I not the "if". But the "share in Christ" doesn't mean salvation, since the bible calls the saved His "brothers".
    But wait ... you have used the fact the Bible says Jesus has "brothers" to mean he literally had brothers.

    So now you're saying it's both literal and metaphorical?
    The one exclusive sign of thorough knowledge is the power of teaching.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Aristotle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    3,385

    Default Re: Ravi Zacharias video clip

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Morris View Post
    Find me in your Catholic tradition where one can be unborn again, unfilled with the Spirit, become NOT a son any longer, and a brother no more.
    I just did with that prior link
    The one exclusive sign of thorough knowledge is the power of teaching.

  4. #84
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sault
    Posts
    37,742

    Default Re: Ravi Zacharias video clip

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    I just did with that prior link
    I see nothing in that link that answers my question.

    Edit to add it's interesting to see the non-biblical answers of the church, claiming a higher authority than the bible.
    Last edited by Barry Morris; 2 Weeks Ago at 07:27 PM.
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

  5. #85
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sault
    Posts
    37,742

    Default Re: Ravi Zacharias video clip

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    But wait ... you have used the fact the Bible says Jesus has "brothers" to mean he literally had brothers.

    So now you're saying it's both literal and metaphorical?
    And why not?? In spite of the denial of the RCC, most other scholars do indeed believe Mary had other children, including sons.

    Through all of this, it is clear why RC's hate to use the term "born again". It makes all the works they do the means of salvation, instead of a change granted by grace, to become a legitimate child of God, and a brother of Christ.
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

  6. #86
    Senior Member Aristotle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    3,385

    Default Re: Ravi Zacharias video clip

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Morris View Post
    I see nothing in that link that answers my question.

    Edit to add it's interesting to see the non-biblical answers of the church, claiming a higher authority than the bible.
    There is nothing non-blblical, and the Church has never claimed its teachings are above the Bible...the book the Church gave us
    The one exclusive sign of thorough knowledge is the power of teaching.

  7. #87
    Senior Member Aristotle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    3,385

    Default Re: Ravi Zacharias video clip

    And why not?? In spite of the denial of the RCC, most other scholars do indeed believe Mary had other children, including sons.

    You didn't answer my question.

    So, when the subject is Mary's perpetual virginity, you will claim "Jesus' brethren" means actual brothers. However, when the subject is being one with Christ, you claim brethren means those who are saved.

    So, you pick and choose when a certain passage should mean a certain thing, based solely on it supporting your pre-conceived notions. You are not concerned with finding actual truth, you're concerned with cherry picking particular verses to support what you already believe.

    Barry, THANK YOU for perfectly showing a magesterium and teaching authority is needed!

    As I've said before, you are actually an important RCC ally here!

    Through all of this, it is clear why RC's hate to use the term "born again". It makes all the works they do the means of salvation, instead of a change granted by grace, to become a legitimate child of God, and a brother of Christ

    The RCC does not shy away from "born again", it just avoids the wrong definition people like you attach to it.

    The RCC always talks about being born again, as in the born again waters of baptism.
    The one exclusive sign of thorough knowledge is the power of teaching.

  8. #88
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sault
    Posts
    37,742

    Default Re: Ravi Zacharias video clip

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    And why not?? In spite of the denial of the RCC, most other scholars do indeed believe Mary had other children, including sons.

    You didn't answer my question.

    So, when the subject is Mary's perpetual virginity, you will claim "Jesus' brethren" means actual brothers. However, when the subject is being one with Christ, you claim brethren means those who are saved.

    So, you pick and choose when a certain passage should mean a certain thing, based solely on it supporting your pre-conceived notions. You are not concerned with finding actual truth, you're concerned with cherry picking particular verses to support what you already believe.

    Barry, THANK YOU for perfectly showing a magesterium and teaching authority is needed!

    As I've said before, you are actually an important RCC ally here!

    Through all of this, it is clear why RC's hate to use the term "born again". It makes all the works they do the means of salvation, instead of a change granted by grace, to become a legitimate child of God, and a brother of Christ

    The RCC does not shy away from "born again", it just avoids the wrong definition people like you attach to it.

    The RCC always talks about being born again, as in the born again waters of baptism.

    You sew confusion very well.

    Re brothers No reason it can't mean both.

    The RCC has told it's people for centuries that they cannot understand scripture, when even the bible itself speaks of those who studied it for themselves. That's why the magisterium exists, to perpetuate their power.

    Re born again. Of course you avoid it, just like "new creation". Doesn't fit YOUR preconcieved notions. Truth doesn't matter. Another reason the RCC doesn't come out with better bible translations.


    You have a great weekend. Will be away for a while.
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

  9. #89
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sault
    Posts
    37,742

    Default Re: Ravi Zacharias video clip

    I think that the reason the RCC doesn't like "born again", "new creation", and the discussion of 'illegitimate" and "legitimate" is that they all speak of some kind of change in the new believer. If there is no change, then the church can insist on its peoples good works to attain salvation.
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

  10. #90
    Senior Member Aristotle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    3,385

    Default Re: Ravi Zacharias video clip

    Re brothers No reason it can't mean both.

    But who determines when it means what? Each individual, according so Sola Scriptura. The results: tens of thousands of Protestant denominations. It kind of says it all.

    The RCC has told it's people for centuries that they cannot understand scripture That's why the magisterium exists, to perpetuate their power.

    The RCC has stated the Bible can be difficult to understand at times. Again, tens of thousands of Protestant denominations proves the RCC was right on.

    Re born again. Of course you avoid it

    We don't avoid it, we just avoid your error-proned view on it, thank God.
    The one exclusive sign of thorough knowledge is the power of teaching.

  11. #91
    Senior Member Aristotle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    3,385

    Default Re: Ravi Zacharias video clip

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Morris View Post
    I think that the reason the RCC doesn't like "born again", "new creation", and the discussion of 'illegitimate" and "legitimate" is that they all speak of some kind of change in the new believer. If there is no change, then the church can insist on its peoples good works to attain salvation.
    And yet another lie. Truth just isn't that important to you, is it?

    Show me in the Catechism where the RCC says good works attains salvation. You have made the claim, now is your chance to prove it.
    The one exclusive sign of thorough knowledge is the power of teaching.

  12. #92
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sault
    Posts
    37,742

    Default Re: Ravi Zacharias video clip

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    Re brothers No reason it can't mean both.

    But who determines when it means what? Each individual, according so Sola Scriptura. The results: tens of thousands of Protestant denominations. It kind of says it all.

    The RCC has told it's people for centuries that they cannot understand scripture That's why the magisterium exists, to perpetuate their power.

    The RCC has stated the Bible can be difficult to understand at times. Again, tens of thousands of Protestant denominations proves the RCC was right on.

    Re born again. Of course you avoid it

    We don't avoid it, we just avoid your error-proned view on it, thank God.
    Love how you avoid answering!!! Thanks!!!!

    Harp on the "tens of thousands" all you want, most of whom agree with the doctrines the others hold, and most of yours!!!
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

  13. #93
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sault
    Posts
    37,742

    Default Re: Ravi Zacharias video clip

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    And yet another lie. Truth just isn't that important to you, is it?

    Show me in the Catechism where the RCC says good works attains salvation. You have made the claim, now is your chance to prove it.
    But, Ari, if grace isn't enough, and this free gift can be rejected, and a person can't be "born again", become a "child of God", and be a "new creation", what's left??

    Just poor you, trying to work your way into heaven.
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

    I promise to always post sober.

  14. #94
    Senior Member Aristotle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    3,385

    Default Re: Ravi Zacharias video clip

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Morris View Post
    But, Ari, if grace isn't enough, and this free gift can be rejected, and a person can't be "born again", become a "child of God", and be a "new creation", what's left??

    Just poor you, trying to work your way into heaven.
    Let's check with the RCC itself, to see what they say about being saved by works:

    Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"- reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

    A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: 'If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'"


    http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2005.htm

    So a favorite lie and criticism of the RCC by Barry is shown to be but a strawman.

    The RCC teaches works are the fruits of grace. Works grow from grace like a branch grows on a tree.
    The one exclusive sign of thorough knowledge is the power of teaching.

  15. #95
    Senior Member Aristotle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    3,385

    Default Re: Ravi Zacharias video clip

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Morris View Post

    Harp on the "tens of thousands" all you want, most of whom agree with the doctrines the others hold
    If they did, there wouldn't be a need to have tens of thousands, now would there?
    The one exclusive sign of thorough knowledge is the power of teaching.

+ Reply to Thread

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

     

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts