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Thread: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    Even if it would be flat, there would still be something underneath.
    Such as??
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

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    Default Re: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Morris View Post
    Such as??
    The other side of the flat disc, obviously.
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    Default Re: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Morris View Post
    2 Cor. 5:8 New International Version
    We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

    Only two choices.

    2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)

    Why would we be told to pray for the dead?
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    Default Re: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalam View Post
    Hi there, Bluesky.



    Pastor Doug addresses 2 Cor 5:8 at length, generally every time this comes up on his radio show. He also addresses it here:

    https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-l...-from-the-body

    I don't think I have ever heard mention what denomination he believes in, but after a quick google search, I believe he is seventh day adventist. This seems in line with his also often-stated opinion about the sabbath. If able, can you take a quick peek at that link, and share your thoughts? I might end up following up with another thread on the sabbath as well, (saturday vs sunday) so I will be interested in your take on that too.

    KaL
    Hi there again, Bluesky. I am hoping you may be in a position now to comment further on this? I've recently gone back to you comments, specifically where you stated ""to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor 5:8). While admittedly I haven't put much time into it, I can' seem to find that translation. From what I've read recently, it appears that that is not what 2 Cor 5:8 says, or appears to mean, in context of the entire passage. Your quote seems to indicate that A = B (to be absent from the body - A, is to be present with the Lord -B), but doesn't the actual verse indicate that Paul has a preference (he prefers B over A)?

    https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-l...-from-the-body

    KaL

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    Default Re: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

    I can now finally post again. For some reason, I was not able to post on Soonet with my device or my phone. Musty have had something to do with cookies..

    OK, to your question. May I ask why this is such an important point for you? It doesn't make a lot of difference to me; belief in the doctrine of soul sleep is not an essential to salvation kind of doctrine. And if we really are unconscious, we will certainly ot be aware of the passage of time between the time of our death and the resurrection of the body. So it doesn't seem very beneficial to argue for one position or the other.

    But let's look at the question once again.
    Basically, the question is, Can the soul exist in a state of some kind of awareness following the death of the body? Or must soul and body be alive together? It seems so. We have the case of Samuel who was roused by the witch of Endor. We have Jesus promising one of the thieves being executed with him, "Today you will be with me in paradise". You have the souls of the martyrs in the book of Revelation aware of the passage of time and crying out to God. We have the account of the rich man and Lazarus. Whether that is a parable or not, it is still tells us about the state of the soul after death.

    BTW, I think it was the KJV that has that rendering
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...A8&version=KJV


    First Paul uses a Greek word that implies certainty and thus COURAGE.. He could very well be saying - I have great confidence in this and it gives me courage..

    Question: What gave Paul this confidence? Well, remember that he had an experience that he described as "whether I was in the body or out of the body, I cannot tell" At least in THAT narrative, Paul admits the possibility of having an out of body experience with his spirit.

    Then Paul says that he would rather be away from the body... Why if it means soul sleep? In that scenario Paul's desire makes no sense. But Paul explains why being away from the body is preferable. Away from the body EQUALS Being in the Lord's presence.

    This verse cannot be explained any other way.
    But I think I have said this before.

    But please explain why this is so important to you? Why is this even an issue? What are the implications if you do/don't believe it?







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    Default Re: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

    Chocolate or mint?
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    Default Re: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

    Hi there, Bluesky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky View Post
    May I ask why this is such an important point for you? It doesn't make a lot of difference to me; belief in the doctrine of soul sleep is not an essential to salvation kind of doctrine. And if we really are unconscious, we will certainly ot be aware of the passage of time between the time of our death and the resurrection of the body. So it doesn't seem very beneficial to argue for one position or the other.

    But please explain why this is so important to you? Why is this even an issue? What are the implications if you do/don't believe it?
    I guess it depends on how you are defining "so important to you" as well as what do I consider to be an "issue". I am not kept awake at night thinking about it; I don't have any thoughts that this somehow connects into salvation. As described in my original post, I have been listening to "Bible Answers, with Pastor Doug" most weekdays, on my way to, and from work. Having been raised in a Baptist home, regularly attending a Baptist church in SSM, a number of belief differences have become apparent between what Pastor Doug has stated with biblical support, and what I understood from my experience. That is fascinating to me. I asked for the thoughts of you and Aristotle, as I respect both of your insightful and knowledgeable views on this. Knowing Aristotle is Catholic, I recognized that Pastor Doug's interpretation shared similarities to Purgatory.

    Is it "important to me" that the commonly held belief that my Christian grandfather joined his pre-deceased Christian wife in Heaven with his Lord upon his death (which is simply an example to illustrate a common thought which brings many comfort when their loved ones pass away) may not actually be the case? If the Bible doesn't teach this, then perhaps we should find a different way to find comfort, as opposed to using a false narrative. So you know, if "the dead are really dead", awaiting resurrection, I personally am not worried about this; its just a very different way of thinking about things.

    Were you able to read\scan the "absent from the body" link I provided? I ask, as it presents an argument which differs from yours, and opposes your statement "This verse cannot be explained any other way."

    KaL

    PS - the caterpillars are in full force out at Batchawana. I presume the same at Haviland?

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    Senior Member Bluesky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

    We have very few trees at our place; thus very few caterpillars. And I am back in Toronto at the present.

    Kalam, Pastor Doug conflates two different passages in order to get a definition that suits his aforegone conclusion. He is SDA, and that group has always held to soul sleep, much like the JW's.

    Have a look at this web page.
    http://www.letusreason.org/doct15.htm
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    Default Re: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

    Hi Bluesky,

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky View Post
    Kalam, Pastor Doug conflates two different passages in order to get a definition that suits his aforegone conclusion. He is SDA, and that group has always held to soul sleep, much like the JW's.

    Have a look at this web page.
    http://www.letusreason.org/doct15.htm
    Thanks for this. I am going to go back and try and see where he "conflates two different passages" (I presume you mean this in a dismissive way), as compared to using various passages of scripture to support a position. I will also read through the link and comment back later.

    KaL

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    Default Re: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Morris View Post
    2 Cor. 5:8 New International Version
    We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

    Only two choices.
    As proof that there are only two choices (in the body or with the Lord), 2 Cor. 5:8 would be something of a lexical ambiguity. The passage only explicitly specifies Paul's personal preference; it says nothing about the (non)existence of a "staging area" between death of the temporal body and entrance into the presence of the Lord.

    For a suggestively stronger validation, it might be best to go back a couple of verses to 2 Cor. 5:6, which says:

    "Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—"

    Now this passage is only explicit about the fact that being in the body is to clearly be absent from the Lord. However, it may be at least somewhat reasonable to deduce that being absent from the body is, then, to be (fully and immediately) present with the Lord.

    For stronger support of this, I would look to Luke 23:43:

    And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

    By the biblical account, this would mean there was absolutely no staging area between temporal death and presence before the Lord.

    Another reference one might consider is Revelation 5. I'm not as convinced about this as the writer from whom I got the reference (I have forgotten his name), but it may still be worth considering.

    Another reference I'd consider is Luke 16:19-26. Though in parable form, it does indicate an immediacy of entering heaven, begging the question of why Jesus would even imply such a thing in story form if, in fact, it wasn't probable in reality. Also, in similar fashion as Luke 16:19-26, Matt. 13:24-30 speaks to the immediacy of presence before the Lord following temporal death (e.g. "gather the wheat into my barn")

    Another reference: 1 Cor 15:50-57; it also may support the notion of "no staging area".

    There is one passage in particular that presents something of a predicament in all of this; it is 1 Thess. 4:13-16, which seems to give a pretty clear indication that temporal death is followed by a "waiting period" (or "staging area" as I called it earlier). At this point I am not sure how to reconcile this seeming disagreement.

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    Default Re: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

    Hi there, Henri,

    I am not good at using quotes, so please bear with me

    Henri said:
    For a suggestively stronger validation, it might be best to go back a couple of verses to 2 Cor. 5:6, which says: "Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—" Now this passage is only explicit about the fact that being in the body is to clearly be absent from the Lord. However, it may be at least somewhat reasonable to deduce that being absent from the body is, then, to be (fully and immediately) present with the Lord."

    KaL says

    I am not in agreement that that is a reasonable deduction, nor is it logical.

    Henri said:
    For stronger support of this, I would look to Luke 23:43: And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” By the biblical account, this would mean there was absolutely no staging area between temporal death and presence before the Lord.

    KaL says:

    Have you heard or read about the issue with that pesky comma, after "Truly I say to you," ? What if you read it as "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise."?

    KaL

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    Default Re: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

    Hi Henri - I am going to add a bit, because I think me saying "I am not in agreement that that is a reasonable deduction, nor is it logical" on its isn't particularly fair or helpful. Here is why. I am going to exchange "home in the body" to "in my house", and "absent from the Lord" to "absent from my cottage", to help explain.

    "Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in my house, we are absent from my cottage". As such, I do not believe it is a reasonable deduction or logical that "being absent from my house" is then to be "present in my cottage". I can be many, many different places other than my cottage, including a "staging area" for example.

    I hope that helps.

    KaL

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    Default Re: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalam View Post
    Hi Henri - I am going to add a bit, because I think me saying "I am not in agreement that that is a reasonable deduction, nor is it logical" on its isn't particularly fair or helpful. Here is why. I am going to exchange "home in the body" to "in my house", and "absent from the Lord" to "absent from my cottage", to help explain.

    "Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in my house, we are absent from my cottage". As such, I do not believe it is a reasonable deduction or logical that "being absent from my house" is then to be "present in my cottage". I can be many, many different places other than my cottage, including a "staging area" for example.

    I hope that helps.

    KaL
    Hi, KaL,

    I disagree that you are not in agreement.

    But seriously...

    Your example (cottage and home) makes for a good visual of what I was arguing for in my comment #30, especially the beginning of it where I argue that 2 Cor 5:8, the supporting text for the argument of "only two choices", is nothing more than a lexical ambiguity. Using your example, the passage only explicitly specifies Paul's personal preference that if he is "away from the body" (ie. at his house) he would want to be "at home with the Lord." (ie. at his cottage). However, as you've clearly stated, Paul could be in many places when not at his house, including a "staging area."

    As for the next part of my comment, which you indicate you are "...not in agreement that that is a reasonable deduction, nor is it logical", I point only to the fact that I said "...it may be at least somewhat reasonable", the emphasis here being "may be" and "somewhat", alluding to the fact that even that deduction is something of a stretch.

    As for the "pesky comma" issue - yes, I've heard and read about it, but actually had forgotten about it until you mentioned it. Certainly a valid comma...err, I mean valid point.

    All in all, I'd say we're not in such disagreement with each other, at least at a base level. 1 Thess. 4:13-16 does present something of a predicament for those advocating for "only two choices", notwithstanding some of the other references I thought ought to be considered in this discussion.

  14. #34
    Senior Member Bluesky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

    About the comma comment: Have you heard or read about the issue with that pesky comma, after "Truly I say to you," ? What if you read it as "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise."

    I know that you know that there is no punctuation at all in the Greek text. And given that to say it the way you meant (I am saying this to you today, and not tomorrow or yesterday..) is a redundancy and far less logical than "today you will be with me in paradise."

    The other factor that was of interest to me is the fact that the average Jew believed that the soul goes to Sheol, a placeholder for the souls of the dead. Jesus was comforting this man by saying, Today, you will be with me..

    Kal.. I have over 30 commentaries and countless articles on that verse. I did not read them all, of course. But I read the first 10. Not one commentator interprets it as you have suggested. There was one mention of the alternate rendering, and that author mentioned the fact that the RC church favours that interpretation, so that one can shoehorn purgatory in there between death and ultimate glorification.
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    Default Re: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

    Seems to me that the RC belief in purgatory denies the power of the blood of Christ.
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

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    Default Re: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Morris View Post
    Seems to me that the RC belief in purgatory denies the power of the blood of Christ.
    How so?

    You once opined in here that...

    a) a person who stole a paper clip could go to Hell, because they stole and lied

    b) if Hitler one day, say when he was 11, said "I accept Jesus as my Savior", then he was not in Hell.

    That, sir, makes a mockery of Christ's sacrificial action.

    Believing in Purgatory in no way denies Christ's action, all it does is reinforce the fact that nothing outside of pure perfection can see the face of God
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    Default Re: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky View Post

    The other factor that was of interest to me is the fact that the average Jew believed that the soul goes to Sheol, a placeholder for the souls of the dead. Jesus was comforting this man by saying, Today, you will be with me..
    Cannot the journey to perfection, thus salvation, be considered "paradise"? Those who go to Purgatory are saved.

    You want to take His words literally here, yet when He says "TRULY, TRULY ..." when He is talking about His blood and body you want to believe He is talking metaphorically.

    Doesn't this simple example alone prove how dangerous Sola Scriptura can be?
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  18. #38
    Senior Member Bluesky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

    If language has any meaning, no the journey TO salvation could not be considered Paradise - otherwise our current state could be called Paradise, which would not make any sense. And if Purgatory is real, and if it is not a pleasant place but rather a place of purging and suffering and penance, then I do not see how this could be called Paradise. No, I think that in the biblically informed Jewish mind, Paradise is like the Garden of Eden; how things were before sin entered the world. In other words, life as God originally intended for us.
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    Default Re: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    How so?

    You once opined in here that...

    a) a person who stole a paper clip could go to Hell, because they stole and lied

    b) if Hitler one day, say when he was 11, said "I accept Jesus as my Savior", then he was not in Hell.

    That, sir, makes a mockery of Christ's sacrificial action.

    Believing in Purgatory in no way denies Christ's action, all it does is reinforce the fact that nothing outside of pure perfection can see the face of God
    A maybe, but it's not that sin that ultimately separates us from God, it's rejecting God.

    B not a chance.

    If the blood of Christ makes us pure before God, purgatory makes no sense. It was just an RCC money making scheme.
    Religion doesn't save you, change you. heal you or set you free. Jesus does.

    "if you could lose your salvation, you would!" John Macarthur

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  20. #40
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    Default Re: Do Christians go to Heaven When they Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Morris View Post

    If the blood of Christ makes us pure before God, purgatory makes no sense.
    If only the blood of Christ makes us pure before God then why live the Christian life? If all that was needed was Jesus' sacrificial action, then there really is no reason to live like a Christian in this world, which Christ told us would be difficult, in fact it would be our own cross to bear.

    We must work alongside Christ's salvific action. If not, then why did Jesus bother saying it would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven? Yes, he was being hyperbolic, but his point still stands: for some, it will be more difficult to gain salvation because they will have more 'anchors' attaching them to this world.

    As for Purgatory ...

    Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD

    2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

    Matthew 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

    Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

    1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.


    ...to show just a few passages
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