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Thread: Crucifixion statement

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Crucifixion statement

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky View Post
    And so talk to us about what you think the motives were.
    It's very simple. Jesus was no fool. He realized after thinking hard and long that in order for his religion to succeed he had to ensure there was always a strong leader at the helm.
    There's no stronger leader than the one that is immortal. He realized that immortality could only be achieved after dead, but at the same time how can you be immortal when you are dead?
    That is where the brilliant idea came from to die first, then resurrect to proof immortality, than ascend to heaven forever out of reach of those who are living and who might want to verify the immortality of the leader.

    I have to admit, it was a brilliant solution to a difficult problem. And with the instructions left behind before death, executed to perfection by his followers and it ensured immortal status for eternity.
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    Default Re: Crucifixion statement

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    It's very simple. Jesus was no fool. He realized after thinking hard and long that in order for his religion to succeed he had to ensure there was always a strong leader at the helm.
    There's no stronger leader than the one that is immortal. He realized that immortality could only be achieved after dead, but at the same time how can you be immortal when you are dead?
    That is where the brilliant idea came from to die first, then resurrect to proof immortality, than ascend to heaven forever out of reach of those who are living and who might want to verify the immortality of the leader.

    I have to admit, it was a brilliant solution to a difficult problem. And with the instructions left behind before death, executed to perfection by his followers and it ensured immortal status for eternity.
    That's an amazing theory. So he plotted his own death, and revealed what he was going to do to his 12 disciples, who all agreed that they would lie about it? And they all, (as they went to their deaths by martyrdom, one by one) never cracked under the torture of dying to confess that it was a hoax?

    Eusebius satirically imagined how the disciples might have motivated each other to take this route:

    Let us band together to invent all the miracles and resurrection appearances which we never saw and let us carry the sham even to death! Why not die for nothing? Why dislike torture and whipping inflicted for no good reason? Let us go out to all the nations and overthrow their institutions and denounce their gods! And even if we don’t convince anybody, at least we’ll have the satisfaction of drawing down on ourselves the punishment for our own deceit.

    Chuck Colson, special counsel to President Nixon during the Watergate scandal in the 1960s, knows full well how difficult it is to keep a conspiracy together. Says Colson:

    “I know how impossible it is for a group of people, even some of the most powerful in the world, to maintain a lie. The Watergate cover-up lasted only a few weeks before the first conspirator broke and turned state’s evidence.”



    "Men will die for what they believe to be true, though it may actually be false. They do not, however, die for what they know is a lie." -Paul Little.

    Hans, do you have any evidence that there was this conspiracy of deceit?
    Last edited by Bluesky; 10-04-2018 at 10:28 AM.
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: Crucifixion statement

    What, exactly, did Jesus get out of this? He died at a young age.

    He wasn't very smart if he made such an elaborate plan that was dependent on his death before it could kick into action.

    I mean, I don't hear of any people claiming to be Jesus' descendants, suing the all the Christian churches in the world for money that is rightly theirs
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  4. #24
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    Default Re: Crucifixion statement

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    What, exactly, did Jesus get out of this? He died at a young age.

    He wasn't very smart if he made such an elaborate plan that was dependent on his death before it could kick into action.

    I mean, I don't hear of any people claiming to be Jesus' descendants, suing the all the Christian churches in the world for money that is rightly theirs
    Ah, see, that's another benefit. Nobody can claim that, as the boundary was passed.
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    Default Re: Crucifixion statement

    So how does Jesus finally get all this loot from what has to be the greatest pyramid scheme in history?
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  6. #26
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    Default Re: Crucifixion statement

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    So how does Jesus finally get all this loot from what has to be the greatest pyramid scheme in history?
    The loot is in being remembered in history.
    He's likely the most well known figure in human history.
    If you are going to die, and eventually we all will, it's good to know you have it all worked out and will be remembered for a long long time.
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  7. #27
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    Default Re: Crucifixion statement

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky View Post
    That's an amazing theory. So he plotted his own death, and revealed what he was going to do to his 12 disciples, who all agreed that they would lie about it? And they all, (as they went to their deaths by martyrdom, one by one) never cracked under the torture of dying to confess that it was a hoax?

    Eusebius satirically imagined how the disciples might have motivated each other to take this route:

    Let us band together to invent all the miracles and resurrection appearances which we never saw and let us carry the sham even to death! Why not die for nothing? Why dislike torture and whipping inflicted for no good reason? Let us go out to all the nations and overthrow their institutions and denounce their gods! And even if we don’t convince anybody, at least we’ll have the satisfaction of drawing down on ourselves the punishment for our own deceit.

    Chuck Colson, special counsel to President Nixon during the Watergate scandal in the 1960s, knows full well how difficult it is to keep a conspiracy together. Says Colson:

    “I know how impossible it is for a group of people, even some of the most powerful in the world, to maintain a lie. The Watergate cover-up lasted only a few weeks before the first conspirator broke and turned state’s evidence.”



    "Men will die for what they believe to be true, though it may actually be false. They do not, however, die for what they know is a lie." -Paul Little.

    Hans, do you have any evidence that there was this conspiracy of deceit?
    It's not impossible to maintain a lie for a long period. You just have to make sure everyone involved in the lie get's eliminated fast, including yourself.
    It is very common in history for lies and deception to occur, and all those with knowledge of it get eliminated fast to ensure the success of the lie.

    Can I prove it? no.
    Does it make more sense than a resurrection and ascension? Absolutely.
    Why does it make more sense? Because there's no known recorded scientific event of someone returning from the dead and as far as we know it's an impossibility. After all, Jesus was a human.
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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Crucifixion statement

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    The loot is in being remembered in history.
    He's likely the most well known figure in human history.
    If you are going to die, and eventually we all will, it's good to know you have it all worked out and will be remembered for a long long time.
    And now I can confirm you're not being serious.
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  9. #29
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    Default Re: Crucifixion statement

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    And now I can confirm you're not being serious.
    I am being serious. Who would not seek immortality in history?
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  10. #30
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    Default Re: Crucifixion statement

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    I am being serious. Who would not seek immortality in history?
    What good is it? You're dead. You can't experience it. You get nothing out of it. You're dead.

    And it is amazing that tens of thousands of his followers were willing to die for a lie.
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  11. #31
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    Default Re: Crucifixion statement

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    What good is it? You're dead. You can't experience it. You get nothing out of it. You're dead.

    And it is amazing that tens of thousands of his followers were willing to die for a lie.
    It is not uncommon for followers of a religious organization to die for their beliefs.
    Just think of Jonestown, Raelism, Aum Shinrikyo. Scientology church has many followers who just plunk down a lot of cash to keep it going.

    I always find it amazing how people seem to seriously believe in any of these organizations. If you look at Scientology, members have to somehow know that their teachings make no sense.

    As far as what you get out of it: you will be remembered by history, while others will be forgotten. For some that is all that matters.
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  12. #32
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    Default Re: Crucifixion statement

    Bluesky reminds me of my religion teacher in high school.

    He spend a few classes explaining why he believed that the Turin shroud was authentic.
    I ended up telling him that eventually science will prove that it is highly unlikely it is authentic, and although he was making good arguments, I was not buying it.

    He did convince me in one of his other classes on Jesus the historic figure. But I think that's almost a given.

    I watched a newer documentary on the Turin shroud last night on Netflix. While it was a bit biased with "experts", I think by now most have come to accept the likelihood it is authentic is virtually 0.

    For some reason I see Bluesky when I look at those memories, lol.
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  13. #33
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    Default Re: Crucifixion statement

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    Bluesky reminds me of my religion teacher in high school.

    He spend a few classes explaining why he believed that the Turin shroud was authentic.
    I ended up telling him that eventually science will prove that it is highly unlikely it is authentic, and although he was making good arguments, I was not buying it.

    He did convince me in one of his other classes on Jesus the historic figure. But I think that's almost a given.

    I watched a newer documentary on the Turin shroud last night on Netflix. While it was a bit biased with "experts", I think by now most have come to accept the likelihood it is authentic is virtually 0.

    For some reason I see Bluesky when I look at those memories, lol.
    Hans, you're totally wrong on the Shroud. The chances of it being fake are being shown to be small.

    I'd provide you a link to a very interesting video on it, if you'd like.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    It is not uncommon for followers of a religious organization to die for their beliefs.


    As far as what you get out of it: you will be remembered by history, while others will be forgotten. For some that is all that matters.
    And you're ascribing this to Jesus, though you know nothing of him.

    C'mon, be better than that. Admit what's going on here: you want Jesus' claim to be the Son of God and Savior to mankind to be false; you have no proof whatsoever it is, so you throw out middle school-level 'proof'.
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  15. #35
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    Default Re: Crucifixion statement

    It is not uncommon for followers of a religious organization to die for their beliefs.
    Just think of Jonestown, Raelism, Aum Shinrikyo. Scientology church has many followers who just plunk down a lot of cash to keep it going.
    Hans you totally missed it. Yes, people die for lies and falsehoods all the time. But I will bet that very few (if any) will die KNOWING that their belief is based on a lie. These people that died under the influence of cults that you mention were deceived. The disciples would have to conspire together to agree that although Jesus died and did NOT come back from the dead, they would spread the message that Christ was risen. (Now if I were there at the time, and they told me Jesus was risen, the first thing I would do is to go to the tomb to see for myself if the tomb was still sealed, and if the Roman soldiers were still there to prevent this kind of rumour from starting! Please comment on this dilemma.) And for this purposeful lie, they would die? In God's name, why? And not one of them broke the agreement? What about all their close friends and relatives who ALSO believed? Would they not also need to be briefed on the conspiratorial plan?

    If they truly believed that Christ was resurrected, and yet were mistaken, this would be more plausible than the conspiracy theory. (By the way, I do not think even 1 scholar who rejects the resurrection holds to this theory because it is too implausible. There are some who assert that the disciples had deceived themselves.)

    While you are thinking about this, would you please give me your opinion as to what happened that there was an empty tomb? Most scholars (even liberal ones) agree that the tomb was empty.
    Last edited by Bluesky; 10-10-2018 at 11:42 AM.
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  16. #36
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    Default Re: Crucifixion statement

    I sense "swoon theory" coming up ...
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  17. #37
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    Default Re: Crucifixion statement

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    Hans, you're totally wrong on the Shroud. The chances of it being fake are being shown to be small.

    I'd provide you a link to a very interesting video on it, if you'd like.
    Sure, give me a link.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky View Post
    Hans you totally missed it. Yes, people die for lies and falsehoods all the time. But I will bet that very few (if any) will die KNOWING that their belief is based on a lie. These people that died under the influence of cults that you mention were deceived. The disciples would have to conspire together to agree that although Jesus died and did NOT come back from the dead, they would spread the message that Christ was risen. (Now if I were there at the time, and they told me Jesus was risen, the first thing I would do is to go to the tomb to see for myself if the tomb was still sealed, and if the Roman soldiers were still there to prevent this kind of rumour from starting! Please comment on this dilemma.) And for this purposeful lie, they would die? In God's name, why? And not one of them broke the agreement? What about all their close friends and relatives who ALSO believed? Would they not also need to be briefed on the conspiratorial plan?

    If they truly believed that Christ was resurrected, and yet were mistaken, this would be more plausible than the conspiracy theory. (By the way, I do not think even 1 scholar who rejects the resurrection holds to this theory because it is too implausible. There are some who assert that the disciples had deceived themselves.)

    While you are thinking about this, would you please give me your opinion as to what happened that there was an empty tomb? Most scholars (even liberal ones) agree that the tomb was empty.
    There is no dilemma about the sealed tomb. It was sealed, 100% sure of that. With guards 24/7 just to be 100% sure.
    The dilemma is not in the seal.
    The question is: was there a body inside, or not?

    As far as scholars are concerned, I agree with them the tomb was empty.
    It has to be empty, otherwise you cannot execute the resurrection and ascension part of the plan.

    So now comes the interesting question: what happened that there was an empty tomb?
    The answer is dead simply (no fun intended): there never was a body inside to begin with.
    It's a trick used by magicians ever since we had magic tricks. They make things disappear, because those things were never there to begin with.
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    Default Re: Crucifixion statement

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    And you're ascribing this to Jesus, though you know nothing of him.

    C'mon, be better than that. Admit what's going on here: you want Jesus' claim to be the Son of God and Savior to mankind to be false; you have no proof whatsoever it is, so you throw out middle school-level 'proof'.
    As you would often remind me: it's not about proof.
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    Default Re: Crucifixion statement

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