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Thread: Dead Sea Scroll fragments discovered to be ‘fakes’ at the Museum of the Bible

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    Default Re: Dead Sea Scroll fragments discovered to be ‘fakes’ at the Museum of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    It reminds man of his infinite smallness in relation to God
    How?
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    Default Re: Dead Sea Scroll fragments discovered to be ‘fakes’ at the Museum of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    What would be the point of sin existing or not existing, if everyone has sinned anyways?
    Or in other words: what's the difference in stating everyone has sinned, or nobody has sinned?
    You will have to pretend that you believe in God for this to make sense.

    In order to understand the difference, one has to understand the nature of sin. What is sin, exactly?
    In it's simplest sense, I think one can say that sin is a breach of relationship. If you promise your wife that you will be true to her till death do you part, and you break that promise, you have "breached that relationship". Your relationship with her can now be characterized by deceit, falsehood, pretense and possibly enmity and hostility. Now you face a few choices.

    1. You can continue to live in deceit. In which case your relationship will be limited and stunted. And you will develop some issues as a psychosis develops around that area.

    2. You can get it out in the open, not deceive each other, and live in a "co-called open relationship" which in essense means you have to nullify the covenant that you have made with each other

    3. OR you can confess what you did to her, and hope to God she truly forgives you, and you can make a fresh attempt at remaining loyal to one another. You will then have a renewed ongoing relationship with God.

    The difference between remaining faithful to your wife and cheating on your wife is essentially the same difference that exists between having sinned and not having sinned. We have ALL cheated on God, because mankind has essentially turned it's back upon him. The process of coming back into a relationship with God is the confession part, and learning to trust him is the ongoing relationship part.
    The heart of the human problem is the problem of the human heart.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Aristotle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dead Sea Scroll fragments discovered to be ‘fakes’ at the Museum of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    How?
    We are sinful, and would remain sinful if not for the graces bestowed upon us by God.

    Even the saintliest of saints were sinful men and women at times, some incredibly so. But the reason they became saints is because they stopped trying to be saints all on their own, and relied on God instead.

    "all have sinned" = you will not make it on your own, ask for God's help and intervention and He'll give it tenfold over what you ask for, or believe you need.
    The one exclusive sign of thorough knowledge is the power of teaching.

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    Default Re: Dead Sea Scroll fragments discovered to be ‘fakes’ at the Museum of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky View Post
    You will have to pretend that you believe in God for this to make sense.

    In order to understand the difference, one has to understand the nature of sin. What is sin, exactly?
    In it's simplest sense, I think one can say that sin is a breach of relationship. If you promise your wife that you will be true to her till death do you part, and you break that promise, you have "breached that relationship". Your relationship with her can now be characterized by deceit, falsehood, pretense and possibly enmity and hostility. Now you face a few choices.

    1. You can continue to live in deceit. In which case your relationship will be limited and stunted. And you will develop some issues as a psychosis develops around that area.

    2. You can get it out in the open, not deceive each other, and live in a "co-called open relationship" which in essense means you have to nullify the covenant that you have made with each other

    3. OR you can confess what you did to her, and hope to God she truly forgives you, and you can make a fresh attempt at remaining loyal to one another. You will then have a renewed ongoing relationship with God.

    The difference between remaining faithful to your wife and cheating on your wife is essentially the same difference that exists between having sinned and not having sinned. We have ALL cheated on God, because mankind has essentially turned it's back upon him. The process of coming back into a relationship with God is the confession part, and learning to trust him is the ongoing relationship part.
    These guys have a totally different take on sin: https://www.allaboutgod.com/what-is-sin.htm

    "The truth is that sin, as defined in the original translations of the Bible, means "to miss the mark." The mark, in this case, is the standard of perfection established by God and evidenced by Jesus. Viewed in that light, it is clear that we are all sinners. "

    As for your explanation, my question still remains. If everyone cheats on their wife, than everyone has sinned. What would be the point of sin in that case? Remember, we started with the statement everyone has sinned. Not that some have sinned.
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    Default Re: Dead Sea Scroll fragments discovered to be ‘fakes’ at the Museum of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    We are sinful, and would remain sinful if not for the graces bestowed upon us by God.

    Even the saintliest of saints were sinful men and women at times, some incredibly so. But the reason they became saints is because they stopped trying to be saints all on their own, and relied on God instead.

    "all have sinned" = you will not make it on your own, ask for God's help and intervention and He'll give it tenfold over what you ask for, or believe you need.

    I think they became saints because we made them into saints.

    So if all have sinned = you will not make it on your own, am I to conclude we should sin as much as possible because that way we can get 10 x over what we ask for from God and "max out" on Godly returns?
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    Default Re: Dead Sea Scroll fragments discovered to be ‘fakes’ at the Museum of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    I think they became saints because we made them into saints.

    So if all have sinned = you will not make it on your own, am I to conclude we should sin as much as possible because that way we can get 10 x over what we ask for from God and "max out" on Godly returns?
    Some believe that. St Paul sets them straight

    What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be!

    How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

    5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

    8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

    14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
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    Default Re: Dead Sea Scroll fragments discovered to be ‘fakes’ at the Museum of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    Some believe that. St Paul sets them straight

    What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be!

    How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

    5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

    8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

    14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
    Now what if you sinned badly, but honestly believing you were doing what is right?
    Would that person receives more Godly returns, because they thought they were doing the correct thing?
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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Dead Sea Scroll fragments discovered to be ‘fakes’ at the Museum of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    Now what if you sinned badly, but honestly believing you were doing what is right?
    Would that person receives more Godly returns, because they thought they were doing the correct thing?
    Sin is based on prior knowledge.

    One action can be a sin for one person but not for another person. It all depends on prior knowledge and full consent of the will.

    A person who truly did not know a particular action was a sin, and that lack of knowledge was not their fault, then they would not be held responsible for the action.

    A person who sins, with full knowledge that their action is a sin, and they still are doing that action with full consent of their will, that person is guilty of grave sin. That person willingly and knowingly created a fracture in their relationship with God. That is a grave matter.

    There are no degrees in God's forgiveness. It is complete, it is the final word on the subject, so to speak.
    The one exclusive sign of thorough knowledge is the power of teaching.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Bluesky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dead Sea Scroll fragments discovered to be ‘fakes’ at the Museum of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    These guys have a totally different take on sin: https://www.allaboutgod.com/what-is-sin.htm

    "The truth is that sin, as defined in the original translations of the Bible, means "to miss the mark." The mark, in this case, is the standard of perfection established by God and evidenced by Jesus. Viewed in that light, it is clear that we are all sinners. "

    As for your explanation, my question still remains. If everyone cheats on their wife, than everyone has sinned. What would be the point of sin in that case? Remember, we started with the statement everyone has sinned. Not that some have sinned.
    I totally agree with that definition of sin. Missing the mark. Because we have 'missed the mark', i.e. failed to meet God's perfect standard, with respect to our relationship with him, we are under condemnation. But we can be forgiven.
    The heart of the human problem is the problem of the human heart.

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    Default Re: Dead Sea Scroll fragments discovered to be ‘fakes’ at the Museum of the Bible

    My take is that God doesn't expect us to be perfect, but he expects us to constantly strive towards perfection while here on earth, knowing there will be many peaks and valleys.
    The one exclusive sign of thorough knowledge is the power of teaching.

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    Default Re: Dead Sea Scroll fragments discovered to be ‘fakes’ at the Museum of the Bible

    My take is that at some point in time we should be considered as having paid off our debt.
    Looks to me like we are being held hostage for something that might have occurred thousands of years ago.

    I would say it's time to move on
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    Default Re: Dead Sea Scroll fragments discovered to be ‘fakes’ at the Museum of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    My take is that at some point in time we should be considered as having paid off our debt.
    Looks to me like we are being held hostage for something that might have occurred thousands of years ago.

    I would say it's time to move on
    Thousands of years ago? Man sins daily, and will continue to do so.

    The price for sin is death. That price has been paid by Christ; death is defeated. But that doesn't mean man can skip out on what he owes in all this. There is a time of purification, nothing but perfection can enter eternity with God.
    The one exclusive sign of thorough knowledge is the power of teaching.

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    Default Re: Dead Sea Scroll fragments discovered to be ‘fakes’ at the Museum of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    Thousands of years ago? Man sins daily, and will continue to do so.

    The price for sin is death. That price has been paid by Christ; death is defeated. But that doesn't mean man can skip out on what he owes in all this. There is a time of purification, nothing but perfection can enter eternity with God.
    I don't consider myself as having done anything today that would constitute a sin.
    I don't understand why you would want to consider yourself as having sinned today. It's absurd and you should think of yourself in better ways than that.

    There has to be something more pleasing to getting up in the morning and thinking about the sinful day you are going to have.
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    Default Re: Dead Sea Scroll fragments discovered to be ‘fakes’ at the Museum of the Bible

    I don't consider myself as having done anything today that would constitute a sin.

    Well, that would be your first problem


    I don't understand why you would want to consider yourself as having sinned today. It's absurd and you should think of yourself in better ways than that.

    Knowing I am sinful doesn't make me beat myself up, it makes me strive to be and do better. It's like exercise for the mind and soul. People workout. Do they do so feeling terribly that they are not perfectly fit? Or do they do so to strive to make themselves better? And in doing so, they feel better about themselves. In turn, I feel better about myself when I try to live and act better. I also know I will fail at times. I don't beat myself up, I get up and motor on.
    The one exclusive sign of thorough knowledge is the power of teaching.

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    Default Re: Dead Sea Scroll fragments discovered to be ‘fakes’ at the Museum of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    I don't consider myself as having done anything today that would constitute a sin.

    Well, that would be your first problem


    I don't understand why you would want to consider yourself as having sinned today. It's absurd and you should think of yourself in better ways than that.

    Knowing I am sinful doesn't make me beat myself up, it makes me strive to be and do better. It's like exercise for the mind and soul. People workout. Do they do so feeling terribly that they are not perfectly fit? Or do they do so to strive to make themselves better? And in doing so, they feel better about themselves. In turn, I feel better about myself when I try to live and act better. I also know I will fail at times. I don't beat myself up, I get up and motor on.
    Sounds like an overly complicated system to me. You could just get up and do your best.
    Well, if you ever end up being correct about this, you will find me on the outside of the gates.
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