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Thread: I believe I have got this at long last,... or do I?

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    Senior Member Anapeg's Avatar
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    Default I believe I have got this at long last,... or do I?

    Religion is following the messanger and Spirituality is following the message. Now with that being said would not either one of those choices be acceptable to a/the Messiah?
    The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress.
    Joseph Joubert

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    Senior Member Bluesky's Avatar
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    Default Re: I believe I have got this at long last,... or do I?

    As far as Christianity is concerned, It is not possible to separate the Message from the messenger. With other faiths, it is. For instance, you do not have to have any affinity to Siddhartha Gautama to be a Buddhist. You just need to practice the principles of Buddhism.

    But the Christian teaching has us actually following Jesus Christ. Christians are referred to as disciples. a disciple, by definition is a follower. Following the messenger enables us to follow the message.
    The heart of the human problem is the problem of the human heart.

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    Senior Member Aristotle's Avatar
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    Default Re: I believe I have got this at long last,... or do I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anapeg View Post
    Religion is following the messanger and Spirituality is following the message. Now with that being said would not either one of those choices be acceptable to a/the Messiah?
    Depends if you believe He left behind a church and sacraments.
    The one exclusive sign of thorough knowledge is the power of teaching.

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    Senior Member Anapeg's Avatar
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    Default Re: I believe I have got this at long last,... or do I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    Depends if you believe He left behind a church and sacraments.
    If He had, would it not have been Judaism?
    The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress.
    Joseph Joubert

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    Senior Member Aristotle's Avatar
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    Default Re: I believe I have got this at long last,... or do I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anapeg View Post
    If He had, would it not have been Judaism?
    No, because Judaism represented the Old Convenant with just a particular group. The New Covenant is for all.

    Catholicism is Judaism after Christ.
    The one exclusive sign of thorough knowledge is the power of teaching.

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    Senior Member Anapeg's Avatar
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    Default Re: I believe I have got this at long last,... or do I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle View Post
    No, because Judaism represented the Old Covenant with just a particular group. The New Covenant is for all.

    Catholicism is Judaism after Christ.
    Then people began 'interpreting' the Bible and twisting things about to suit themselves, leaving us with the mish-mash we have today to represent the followers of but a supposedly single entity.
    The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress.
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    Senior Member Anapeg's Avatar
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    Default Re: I believe I have got this at long last,... or do I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky View Post
    As far as Christianity is concerned, It is not possible to separate the Message from the messenger. With other faiths, it is. For instance, you do not have to have any affinity to Siddhartha Gautama to be a Buddhist. You just need to practice the principles of Buddhism.

    But Christian teaching has us actually following Jesus Christ. Christians are referred to as disciples. a disciple, by definition, is a follower. Following the messenger enables us to follow the message.
    Sounds like nitpicking but I follow the thought.
    The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress.
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    Senior Member Bluesky's Avatar
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    Default Re: I believe I have got this at long last,... or do I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anapeg View Post
    Sounds like nitpicking but I follow the thought.
    Let me explain further. If the heart of Christianity is to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and died for your sins and mine, then how is it possible to separate the man from the message?

    It is my connection with HIM that makes the difference in Christianity. He IS the message.
    The heart of the human problem is the problem of the human heart.

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    Senior Member Anapeg's Avatar
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    Default Re: I believe I have got this at long last,... or do I?

    So it all comes down to a crap shoot? You are betting on which religion is right. Was that, in fact, the Messiah who they nailed to the cross or has He in fact not been here yet?
    The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress.
    Joseph Joubert

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    Default Re: I believe I have got this at long last,... or do I?

    This is the problem: Is there even a right religion?
    A Buddhist is not going to subscribe to Christianities view, a Muslim is not going to agree with the Buddhist view, a Hindu is not going to subscribe to a Muslims view, and the list goes on.

    In the end it has to become clear that whatever religion is the best at enforcing it's doctrine is going to be "right". Even when they are wrong.
    The major religions on this planet are where they are today because of their enforcement of their doctrine, either in the past of the current.
    None of them would have grown to the size they grew if it was not for enforcement. Even Christianity.

    In my opinion they are all wrong, as that is the only logical conclusion to draw from this.
    I refuse to take sides and await until we have scientifically unraveled the origin(s) of life on earth.
    Likely will not happen in my lifetime, but you never know.
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    Senior Member Anapeg's Avatar
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    Default Re: I believe I have got this at long last,... or do I?

    We all have to believe in something and I believe I shall have another beer.
    The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress.
    Joseph Joubert

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    Default Re: I believe I have got this at long last,... or do I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anapeg View Post
    We all have to believe in something and I believe I shall have another beer.

    Now that is something I can believe in!
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    Senior Member Bluesky's Avatar
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    Default Re: I believe I have got this at long last,... or do I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anapeg View Post
    So it all comes down to a crap shoot? You are betting on which religion is right. Was that, in fact, the Messiah who they nailed to the cross or has He in fact not been here yet?
    I was going to attempt a serious answer but... I guess not..
    The heart of the human problem is the problem of the human heart.

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    Default Re: I believe I have got this at long last,... or do I?

    Why not? It's a good question he poses. Was it the Messiah, or is the Messiah still to come?
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    Senior Member Anapeg's Avatar
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    Default Re: I believe I have got this at long last,... or do I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky View Post
    I was going to attempt a serious answer but... I guess not..
    My question stands...
    The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress.
    Joseph Joubert

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    Senior Member Bluesky's Avatar
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    Default Re: I believe I have got this at long last,... or do I?

    So you asked if it is a crap shoot? I am not sure what that means, but I think you are asking what kind of a gamble it is to stake your destiny on Jesus Christ being the true Messiah?

    I had written quite a lengthy answer, only to lose it. I will try again. This time I will copy and save it to my drive before trying to post.

    So let us look at the odds first of all that Jesus Christ was a historical figure. Please see statement 1 and give me your response.

    1. A man by the name of Jesus who started a movement and died because of that movement did exist. What do you think the odds are on that statement? Crap shoot? I don't think so. There is more evidence for that statement than for many other historical persons whose existence we never question.

    If you reject this statement out of hand, there is little need to go to the next proposition.
    The heart of the human problem is the problem of the human heart.

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    Default Re: I believe I have got this at long last,... or do I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky View Post
    So you asked if it is a crap shoot? I am not sure what that means, but I think you are asking what kind of a gamble it is to stake your destiny on Jesus Christ being the true Messiah?

    I had written quite a lengthy answer, only to lose it. I will try again. This time I will copy and save it to my drive before trying to post.

    So let us look at the odds first of all that Jesus Christ was a historical figure. Please see statement 1 and give me your response.

    1. A man by the name of Jesus who started a movement and died because of that movement did exist. What do you think the odds are on that statement? Crap shoot? I don't think so. There is more evidence for that statement than for many other historical persons whose existence we never question.

    If you reject this statement out of hand, there is little need to go to the next proposition.
    I don't think anybody says Jesus did not exist. But existence does not mean being a Messiah, or the true Messiah.
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